TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

General Politics Thread

Go To

This thread is for discussing politics, political science, and other politics-related topics in a general, non-country/region-specific context. Do mind sensitive topics, especially controversial ones; I think we'd all rather the thread stay free of Flame Wars.

Please consult the following threads for country/region-specific politics (NOTE: The list is eternally non-comprehensive; it will be gradually updated whenever possible).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 25th 2025 at 9:51:19 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3576: Jan 19th 2022 at 6:35:51 AM

I wouldn't take a survey like that at face value. If you go to a dictatorship and ask people if they like the dictator, and get a 100% 'yes' answer, your conclusion should not be that they actually like the dictator.

So we should ignore all evidence that clashes with our preconceptions? This sounds like a pretty bad way to do science, "people can't possibly sincerely support an authoritarian government" is not an assumption that we should uncritically accept.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 19th 2022 at 6:36:21 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#3577: Jan 19th 2022 at 6:43:48 AM

[up] This does seem like a valid concern, though.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3578: Jan 19th 2022 at 6:47:44 AM

[up]Yes, it is. But there is a difference between recognizing a possible confounding variable and just throwing out data. The latter kills any possibility of understanding.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 19th 2022 at 6:48:01 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3579: Jan 19th 2022 at 7:05:03 AM

I would tend to think that these public opinions, like most of them, are highly volitile. They tend to change in response to economic conditions.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#3580: Jan 19th 2022 at 7:17:51 AM

It is possible for people to be supportive of authoritarian governments if said government makes them feel more attended than a democratic one. It's one of the reasons why populism often goes hand-in-hand with authoritarianism.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3581: Jan 19th 2022 at 9:30:24 AM

[up][up]Indeed, and it's not uncommon for authoritarian governments (most famously the CCP) to base their legitimacy on economic conditions.

Which could explain the data, democracies typically don't collapse because of a downturn so unpopular democracies will just keep going. While the same isn't as true for authoritarian governments.

[up]Well said.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 19th 2022 at 9:30:46 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#3582: Jan 19th 2022 at 4:29:56 PM

Sorry, my position might have come across as stronger than it was, I should have been more clear. I'm more saying that said evidence needs to be taken with a pinch of salt is all.

Leviticus 19:34
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3583: Jan 19th 2022 at 4:53:15 PM

[up]That's much more reasonable.

In that case, I agree.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#3584: Jan 19th 2022 at 11:23:01 PM

Personally, what worries me most is that any attempt to go against the mainstream is tolerated less, if it is considered to be against the public good, even if it is sometimes necessary.

The anti-vax strain of anti-intellectualism coming to the forefront due to COVID isn’t some big global shift, it’s one of many recent data points that the developed world has a serious problem with under-educating it’s population and allowing echo-chambers to isolate voters from reality.

I think placing more emphasis on civic and ethical education would help a lot, rather than treating these matters as an afterthought. Countries like Japan and South Korea take these issues as a very serious matter, as does learning about other vital subjects, such as maths or history.

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#3585: Jan 20th 2022 at 5:30:38 AM

I'm not sure how increased 'civic and ethical education' would help against misinformation based on bad understandings of science such as not understanding how vaccines work. Better standards for science education and critical thinking curriculum, yes.

(BTW, when I was a kid in the US we did have a civics class, part of social studies. Ethics, no, nor do I think should we have such a class in a public school.)

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3586: Jan 20th 2022 at 5:34:42 AM

And of course the very well funded and organized conservative propaganda campaign that has been going on for 40 years doesn't help either...

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
minseok42 A Self-inflicted Disaster from A Six-Tatami Room (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
A Self-inflicted Disaster
#3587: Jan 20th 2022 at 5:48:01 AM

[up][up][up]

I think placing more emphasis on civic and ethical education would help a lot, rather than treating these matters as an afterthought. Countries like Japan and South Korea take these issues as a very serious matter, as does learning about other vital subjects, such as maths or history.

Uh, I live in South Korea, where we had ethics class as part of the curriculum every year until middle school, and no, there are plenty of people who believe in utter bullshit. The alt-right has been a huge problem for more than a decade in this country. Hell, there are a lot of people who believe a wiki taken over by alt-right incels is a reliable source. Also, starting in 2020, even the mainstream news media started giving anti-vaxxers a platform.

Another problem is that the ethics curriculum has a slightly (socially) conservative and somewhat nationalistic bias to it.

Edited by minseok42 on Jan 20th 2022 at 11:25:11 PM

"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow
luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#3588: Jan 20th 2022 at 10:48:10 AM

[up]Yeah, I know that's not a perfect solution, like everything in this life, but at least that would help reduce many of the incidents of people with negative behaviors affecting society as a whole, rather than having to solve those problems when they occur.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#3589: Jan 20th 2022 at 12:06:21 PM

With COVID (as well as conspiracy theories), I'd say the important thing would be teaching critical thinking. People are told to question everything, but never how to know when they found an answer.


I would say there is an ethical lesson that Americans (at least as far as I can tell) tend to sorely lack that we might do with education.

Basically, a lot of people don't see themselves as having obligations to society and tend to view "it's a free country" as a license to be inconsiderate.

Leviticus 19:34
luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#3590: Jan 23rd 2022 at 9:33:36 PM

I would say there is an ethical lesson that Americans (at least as far as I can tell) tend to sorely lack that we might do with education.

Basically, a lot of people don't see themselves as having obligations to society and tend to view "it's a free country" as a license to be inconsiderate.

The worst part of the issue is that many Americans refuse to accept this type of education in schools. In fact, I had an altercation with an American a few months ago when I suggested the same idea, and when I used Japan and South Korea as examples, he called me a weeaboo, among other racist insults.

I must assume that many Americans would not like that kind of education to be taught in schools, considering it something that should be taught at home instead.

To be honest, the same thing happened here in Mexico at the beginning, but due to the high levels of delinquency, among other reasons, it was decided to re-impose ethics and civics education in Mexican schools, when before these subjects were only taught in private religious schools, and were not taught in public schools, although the subject of civics was taught in Mexican schools, at least when I went to school, but at that time, the subject was dedicated more to the teaching of propaganda and how to venerate our national symbols, and nothing else.

minseok42 A Self-inflicted Disaster from A Six-Tatami Room (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
A Self-inflicted Disaster
#3591: Jan 23rd 2022 at 10:48:22 PM

I think it would depend on what is being taught. Here in South Korea, having an ethics class in the curriculum started under occupation by Imperial Japan, and since we were ruled by dictators until the late 1980s, the subject was centered around propaganda for a very long time. One philosopher even caused controversy by saying that it was fascist to have a class dedicated to ethics. The government only started getting input from philosophers in designing the curriculum in 2005. We have ethics class, but not civics class, which just shows that the education system was never about making good citizens. Even when I was in school, the ethics textbook had a (socially) conservative bent.

A quick google search shows that Japan got rid of ethics class when they lost WWII, and they reintroduced it in the 21st century, but it was not without controversy.

"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow
luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#3592: Jan 23rd 2022 at 11:08:39 PM

[up]I don't know how realistic it is in real life, at least in South Korea, but I would like to know if at least in your country there is what is called "Public Morals Committee" or anything resembling one, at least as it appears in Japanese media, like in anime, where they, or a specific person, is supposed to be the paragon of morality for the rest of the students.

Edited by luisedgarf on Jan 23rd 2022 at 1:09:14 PM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3593: Jan 23rd 2022 at 11:21:26 PM

I think that is more an issue of culture than education. Countries like North Korea and Japan are highly hierarchical with a lot of deference for social betters, which automatically comes with a strong sense of duty to society. In contrast, a country like the US is highly egalitarian socially, with a much bigger focus on the individual.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
minseok42 A Self-inflicted Disaster from A Six-Tatami Room (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
A Self-inflicted Disaster
#3594: Jan 23rd 2022 at 11:24:14 PM

[up][up] A lot of our education system comes from Imperial Japan, so there are a lot of similarities. There is a similar organization in most middle and high schools, called the seondobu (literally 'Department for leading students to the right path'). Their job is mostly to stand in front of the gate to the school and write down the names and ID numbers of students who are late or who violates the school dress code. Unlike the Absurdly Powerful Student Council in anime, they have little or no autonomy. They aren't necessarily 'paragons of morality', but they can get fired if they violate school rules severely.

Edited by minseok42 on Jan 24th 2022 at 4:24:27 AM

"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3595: Jan 24th 2022 at 12:02:26 AM

Yeah, I don't think that is the sort of education we want, sorry.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#3596: Jan 24th 2022 at 6:06:35 AM

It's kind of weird, but I admit that the bit about "obligation to society" is something that I have seen more in families that have relatives in the military, at least mine was like that.

And honestly, I don't see how this could be controversial when we consider that our modern system of democratic government incorporates the theory of the social contract, which is a two-way road between the state and the individual.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3597: Jan 24th 2022 at 6:10:09 AM

I think it is controversial in the sense that we don't want to base our society on a military model with military mores anymore. We don't want our kids to swear allegiance to the flag or wear uniforms or be absolutely deferential to authority.

That's not to say we don't want to care about the public good, but we don't want to do so through a military lens.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#3598: Jan 24th 2022 at 6:19:55 AM

Yeah, most definitely no 'this is the One True Way to be a Good Person(tm)' stuff. Critical Thinking being taught, I've already said I highly support. And we did/do have civics/social studies where you're taught things about how the government works and is structured, we had a mock trial, and so on. But the only Ethics I'd support is if it were more like Chidi Anagonye's class in The Good Place teaching different schools of ethics, and he was a college professor, not a middle school or high school teacher.

Edited by PointMaid on Jan 24th 2022 at 6:20:25 AM

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3599: Jan 24th 2022 at 6:22:40 AM

There is a similar organization in most middle and high schools, called the seondobu (literally 'Department for leading students to the right path'). Their job is mostly to stand in front of the gate to the school and write down the names and ID numbers of students who are late or who violates the school dress code.

Yah know, I can be quite the stickler for rules, but even I can't help but feel the urge to throw gum in the hair of anyone that actually joins the official snitch-club.

minseok42 A Self-inflicted Disaster from A Six-Tatami Room (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
A Self-inflicted Disaster
#3600: Jan 24th 2022 at 6:26:38 AM

[up][up][up]Yep, the thing I hate the most about my country's education system is that it's too militaristic since it was heavily influenced by fascist Imperial Japan and there are too many remnants of the military juntas that ruled South Korea until the early 90s. If you look at a satellite photo of South Korea, schools are nearly indistinguishable from military bases. Hell, my parents said that when they were in school, they learned how to throw hand grenades in gym class. I think there could be a better way to teach children to become better students.

[up][up]Though, I think the sweet spot is somewhere between 'this is the One True Way to be a Good Person(tm)' and 'every point of view is valid, including all sorts of bigoted bullshit'. In Korea, a few months ago, there was a controversy when the alt-right claimed that there was a secret society of teachers who are teaching feminism, and that they shouldn't teach that women have human rights, since that would be a biased viewpoint.

[up]For that very reason, when I was in high school, no member of the seondobu actually did their job.

Edited by minseok42 on Jan 24th 2022 at 11:29:29 PM

"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow

Total posts: 5,585
Top