TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

General Politics Thread

Go To

This thread is for discussing politics, political science, and other politics-related topics in a general, non-country/region-specific context. Do mind sensitive topics, especially controversial ones; I think we'd all rather the thread stay free of Flame Wars.

Please consult the following threads for country/region-specific politics (NOTE: The list is eternally non-comprehensive; it will be gradually updated whenever possible).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 25th 2025 at 9:51:19 AM

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3276: Mar 9th 2021 at 8:11:07 PM

No. Like most places, you should take the best we have to offer, and adapt it to your own needs.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#3277: Mar 9th 2021 at 8:59:19 PM

There are three things that I would adapt for Peru.

One, a revival of the concept of the "Cursus Honorum", if there's something that I have learned from witnessing the rise of populism across the globe in the last years is that democracy itself was not prepared for the Age of Information and the influx of fake news and echo chambers that followed with it.

Therefore, and taking heed of the growing life expectancy, it would be in the best interest of the state to put restrictions and funnels to ensure that the politicians that aspire to enter the higher echelons of government are at least qualified to hold the position.

Two, the Social Democratic model that European countries like Germany follow, along with a look at Keynesian economical models. Let's be honest, Third World nations have lost overall in the Era of Globalization and Free Markets, so it is a necessity for us to somehow even the odds and not be left behind by the industrialized countries, and if that means a greater intervention of the state apparatus and protectionist policies, so be it.

Three, and I admit that this is half serious and completely optional, a Constitutional Monarchy like Spain and the Scandinavian countries have.

This is completely controversial and might make you all baffled, however this is partially because, and as a book titled "Looking For a King: Authoritarism in the History of Peru" summed up, the Republic of Peru holds a hybrid system of a Republican Monarchy because the Kingdom of Peru never properly made its transition from its Viceroyalty position to a real Republic in all these years, which has lead to the failure of the long term establishment of democratic parties and the rise of strongmen across the years.

So, as a last resort option, we might as well cut the middle man and invite a Habsburg or Bourbon here and start making the proper evolution that should have been done since the independence, besides, knowing my countrymen, the people would eat it up if it's promoted properly.

Once again, I'm saying this out of desperation, because the Peruvian people love this sort of circus, so I might as well oblige to get things done instead of wasting time trying to housebreak an entire country to follow an institution nobody truly believes in.

Here's one author's (Hector Velarde) sum up of the situation here:

"The Presidents of Peru are always a bit Incas and a bit Viceroys. If they are too Incas, the peruvians of the Crown reject them; if they are too Viceroys, the peruvians of the Mascaipacha reject them. And if they are too democratic, both the peruvians of the Crown and Mascaipacha reject them as foreign exotic goods."

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#3278: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:11:16 AM

So, as a last resort option, we might as well cut the middle man and invite a Habsburg or Bourbon here

Why not a descendant of the Incas instead?

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#3279: Mar 10th 2021 at 6:46:31 AM

[up]

For one, because the question then becomes which one, the Incas practice of polygamy ensured that a lot of Imperial Princes could continue their lineage so long as they recognized the King of Spain as King of Peru.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#3280: Mar 10th 2021 at 6:47:44 AM

The idea that Peruvians would accept a monarchy from another country is...dubious. Or even a "national" monarchy, why both the Left and Right would like that?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Mar 10th 2021 at 9:48:18 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3281: Mar 10th 2021 at 6:50:07 AM

[up][up]Who cares "which one"? It's not like monarchs are actually special. Just pick a name from a hat and work out a "proper" succession later.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#3282: Mar 10th 2021 at 6:55:30 AM

[up][up]

You can't deny that with the way our people eat up the media circus that congress or past presidents like Alan Garcia spent their time doing that there's a vacuum that proper democratic leaders are not filling.

And to be honest, the proposal is more of a Centre thing, the Right is not going to look forward at getting their platform rebuked - Keiko and the Fujimorist for instance would throw a fit - while the Left would argue that monarchy is antithetical to democracy even though we don't share the antimonarchical tradition of the USA.

Edit:

[up]

Well, given that there could be potential backlash to that from another segment of the population, the compromise would be a Diarchy in that case, with one Inca prince and another Habsburg/Bourbon one.

Edit 2:

Anyways, forgive me for that brief moment of madness, it's just as likely that Peru doesn't really need that and the Republic can see the light at the other end of the tunnel.

Edited by raziel365 on Mar 10th 2021 at 7:30:10 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#3283: Mar 10th 2021 at 3:47:33 PM

Don't the Fujimoris want to become the monarchy? tongue

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3284: Mar 10th 2021 at 5:44:30 PM

Well, your first two ideas were pretty solid.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3285: Mar 10th 2021 at 5:52:29 PM

Left would argue that monarchy is antithetical to democracy even though we don't share the antimonarchical tradition of the USA.

I don't think the absence of a republican tradition invalidates their point. The idea that a family should have a special place in society because of birthright is antithetical with democracy as a concept.

Obviously, constitutional monarchies can be democratic but monarchy as an idea is mutually exclusive with democracy as an idea.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#3286: Mar 10th 2021 at 7:41:15 PM

The idea that obtaining a monarchy will solve Peruvian issues is also very dubious. I can see a weirdo right winger propose this in a drunk moment, but it legit makes no sese.

For starters, where their legitimancy comes?

This is the issue with "looking foward Conservatives" by trying to create artificial traditions. The traditions that stuck generally were build organically over centuries.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Mar 10th 2021 at 10:42:49 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3287: Mar 10th 2021 at 7:54:26 PM

Exactly, without the traditions, it wouldn't have any power. Which would make it even more pointless than a normal constitutional monarchy.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#3288: Mar 10th 2021 at 9:05:34 PM

Is not even Worship of the Ashes, is worship of a picture of a fire

Watch me destroying my country
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#3289: Mar 11th 2021 at 12:52:06 AM

The only circumstance where I could see a monarchy fixing political issues is if Peru is in the same situation as the USA where presidents constantly get elected on promises that are not theirs to give. If all actual political power depends on a government appointed by parliament (similar to the United Kingdom) you don't have that issue.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#3290: Mar 11th 2021 at 9:40:04 AM

@ Ramidel

Yeah, that's why they would throw a fit, having a legally established monarchy would take away another of their platforms they tend to use. It's a messed up situation overall.

@ De Marquis

I don't intend to abandon the first two ideas, the only one I will describe as madness is the third one.

[up]

That's actually the problem, pretty much all presidents are elected on promises they can't fulfil but either the people are ignorant of that due to lack of education or willfully ignorant because the truth is not pretty.

This also leads into us choosing the lesser of two evils in the second round.

Overall, there's this messianism that keeps coming back over and over again in politics that doesn't seem to be fading away any time soon; and besides, Peru as a Republic has only two hundred years in comparison to the three hundred of being a Kingdom (four hundred if we count the Tawantinsuyu), not counting the decades lost to military or civil dictatorships.

Like I said, this idea is born out of desperation to try to stop the cycle of authoritarism gaining the upper hand in the Republic without compromising democracy itself, that's why I thought that in such a situation a Constituional Monarchy might not be that bad of an idea, even if that means creating a new tradition.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#3291: Mar 31st 2021 at 3:26:28 PM

We need highly formal rituals in order to make life more democratic

I hold an unpopular view. I believe, firmly and invariably, that life in the 21st century is too informal and empty of ritual, and that we should encourage and erect more needless formality. Formality, ritual and ceremony – not casual approachability – are among the most effective ways of making the world and its institutions more inclusive and egalitarian. We all need much more formality in our lives.

...

Comfort has won, and most formality is gone. But the freedom of informality comes at a cost. Formality is the bulwark against some of the nastiest human impulses, and acts as a vaccine against our most dangerous tendency: forming in-groups and out-groups.

There’s nothing you or I or the Pope or the United Nations could do to stop humans from forming clubs, inventing or elevating meaningful markers of difference, and building fences and corrals that keep one’s group together while keeping the ‘others’ out. We are a tribal ape with a brain built to exaggerate our allegiance to our small band while manning the barricades against others distinguished by vanishingly tiny differences. Individuals can, with great effort, consciously suppress this nasty bit of programming, but populations on the whole will fail.

Groups can form around any distinguishing feature, from the harmless, such as sporting teams, schools attended or favourite novels, to the nefarious, such as race, class or sex. Each person can disavow some marks of difference while clinging to others – and no person can disavow them all.

This mental virus might be incurable, but there is a vaccine: formality. Formality gives us something harmless around which to form an in-group: namely, knowledge of the rules of that particular formality, with its own trials of membership and rules of initiation.

‘Ah yes, the dress code is a bit difficult to understand… You see, it’s based on Edwardian standards, of course, so “semiformal” actually means black tie! No, no, don’t worry a bit, it is unusual…’

The opportunity to be a crowing pedant about the rules of formality gives one something to do instead of in-grouping around more exclusionary traits, such as to which expensive school one went. More importantly, the rules of formality are ultimately accessible to all. Anyone can learn the etiquette and wear the tie, and so become part of the ever larger, ever more diverse in-group that practices the formality of the event.

This is an excerpt form the middle of the article, and the base of the author's argument seems to be the line in bold. I posted it because its an interesting argument for rituals and formalities that doesn't say 'because its tradition'. The article is not current to the day but it is from April 2020.

Edited by CenturyEye on Mar 31st 2021 at 3:28:04 AM

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#3292: Mar 31st 2021 at 3:33:55 PM

Weren't standards of formailty historically used to discriminate against the lower classes who couldn't overcome the barrier to entry though? I'm seeing red flags.

My musician page
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#3293: Mar 31st 2021 at 4:20:11 PM

[up]Surebut at the same time informality can be use by populist, demagogue and other to push other rule that are there for a reason like voting right, term limits or other things, populist usally engage in a form of "is really that bad that I broke this rule? I love you so much....." that is a red flag.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#3294: Mar 31st 2021 at 7:28:29 PM

The downside of this is that it means the radicals simply do more and nobody else has a voice. Thought this always happens even on mandatory democracies.

Watch me destroying my country
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#3295: Mar 31st 2021 at 8:35:32 PM

Formality, while indeed a tool of needless exclusion in the past, can also be a tool for proper exclusion and standard setting.

As @ unknowing has mentioned, populists thrive with informality because there's no bar with which to properly measure their behaviour as aberrant, you can't have serious politics if the politicians themselves do not act with the gravitas of their station.

Same thing goes with the electors, if you want a system that acts with competence, then you need to give it the proper respect and care it deserves, we are citizens after all, that comes with its own set of responsibilities.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3296: Mar 31st 2021 at 8:55:53 PM

"You can grab a beer with him" and all that bullshit, basically.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#3297: Mar 31st 2021 at 9:39:17 PM

Doesn't help when the standards also applied hypocritcally, with some politicians suffering control when calling out others while others are allowed to insult or outright acusse ex presidents of genocide (I mean like how Lopez Aliaga, Covid denialist, is acussing Martin Vizcarra of genocide over his handling of Covid. All while being a firm lockdown sceptic whose answer of "people will die" is to say "well, everyone dies everyday") without nobody saying "stop insulting"

...The far right really is a argument against the very concept of democracy, they're ironically what Aristocrats meant with "brutish masses"

Edited by KazuyaProta on Mar 31st 2021 at 11:41:13 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3298: Apr 1st 2021 at 3:49:51 AM

Let's not start calling them brutish masses. We saw how well that turned out for Clinton.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#3299: Apr 1st 2021 at 3:54:00 AM

[up] I'm gonna be honest, anyone who voted for a fascist because "the bad lady called me names" kinda proved her point. tongue

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3300: Apr 1st 2021 at 4:10:57 AM

Yeah, but the problem is that it also made people not want to vote for her who might have otherwise done so. Republicans have Democratic family too, and those Democrats may not appreciate the slur in that context.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

Total posts: 5,585
Top