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Misused (titles crowner 10/2/14): Bigger Bad

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#251: Sep 20th 2014 at 9:42:23 PM

If we're going to rename, then Greater Evil is the best suggestion I've heard yet.

Az_Tech341 Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
#252: Sep 21st 2014 at 5:05:01 AM

[up] I agree that Greater Evil is best. It says what Bigger Bad is trying to say, without the confusing connotation.

Hey Harmonica, when they do you in, pray that it's someone who knows where to shoot.
DiamondWeapon Since: Jan, 2001
#253: Sep 21st 2014 at 5:18:44 AM

I think Greater Evil sounds too much like Eviler than Thou. This trope is a stronger villain, not necessarily more evil.

I like Bigger Bad. It doesn't need a rename. The reference to Big Bad is a good thing, since the trope is defined in relation to it. And really, saying it should be renamed to something "less catchy" so people wouldn't want to use it so much is just dull.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#254: Sep 21st 2014 at 5:27:24 AM

Well, it's the best we got though, To me, Greater Evil means an evil that is greater in threat (to match our current proposed definition), not a villain greater in evil.

I honestly don't think Bigger Bad needs a rename either, but that seems to be the direction we're going, so I would like to here your suggestions on a name.

DiamondWeapon Since: Jan, 2001
#255: Sep 21st 2014 at 8:59:27 AM

[up]Perhaps. But the words also mean the exact same thing as Bigger Bad. Is there any point in renaming it if all we're doing is picking synonyms from a dictionary? Bigger Bad today, Greater Evil tomorrow, Larger Villain the day after that? All the rename would accomplish is losing the inherent answer to the question "biggger than who" that the name Bigger Bad contains (bigger than the Big Bad).

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#256: Sep 21st 2014 at 9:52:29 AM

[up] The words are synonyms so that the meaning and self-explanatory nature of the name can stay, but making it less confusing at the same time. Bigger Bad conveys a similarity to The Man Behind the Man, whereas Greater Evil doesn't. That's why people want to rename Bigger Bad. And again, the way things are going, we're probably going to rename it anyway.

Once again, I'm not looking forward to renaming Bigger Bad, as its connection with Big Bad will be lost in the name. But if we have to, Greater Evil is the best name I've got.

edited 21st Sep '14 9:54:53 AM by SatoshiBakura

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#257: Sep 21st 2014 at 10:12:33 AM

I think renaming both Man Behind the Man and Bigger Bad to make them both more clear would be the best.

Man Behind the Man to The Bad Behind The Big Bad or The Bigger Bad Behind The Big Bad And Bigger Bad to something like More Threatening Second Big Bad? Lacking ideas on an exact name.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#258: Sep 21st 2014 at 10:22:57 AM

The Man Behind the Man has a clear enough name. The first I think when I hear that name is "villain is actually a pawn of another villain". And I honestly don't think that Bigger Bad needs a rename, but that's the direction we're going, so whatever.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#259: Sep 21st 2014 at 10:31:08 AM

The Man Behind the Man also has a far more general meaning than just villainy and that should be a super trope To the current version.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#260: Sep 21st 2014 at 10:42:12 AM

The possible renames we were discussing earlier in the thread was something like Greater Background Threat or Bigger Background Danger. I'd definitely prefer those to any reference to Big Bad and/or The Man Behind the Man, given that a forced half-coherent snowclone is probably going to be worse than just leaving it as Bigger Bad.

edited 21st Sep '14 10:42:19 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#261: Sep 21st 2014 at 10:53:32 AM

[up] Again, the Bigger Bad is not always in the background. They can be front and center, but not involved in the conflict. Again, take Zorc from Yu-Gi-Oh!: he's the main focus of the final arc, but he only comes in about half-way through. Dark Bakura is ultimately the Big Bad of the last arc as he wants to resurrect Zorc, which causes the conflict.

If we should rename this, Greater Evil is our best option so far (in my eyes).

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#262: Sep 21st 2014 at 11:50:07 AM

[up] It is almost always secondary when introduced after that the trope tends to split off into different directions could be a Big Bad Takeover, be used by the big bad, a Mêlée à Trois, Big Bad and Heroes team up for a while etc. The heart of it is 'Its a third party that is seemingly more powerful than the Big Bad'.

The problem is the examples really just seem to be 'Indirctly The Man Behind The Man' I would say even that Yu-Gi-Oh! example is extremely borderline.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#263: Sep 21st 2014 at 11:53:01 AM

[up] Well, for the series as a whole, Zorc is a Bigger Bad. He technically does become the Big Bad in the last half the arc, but he isn't involved until then.


The heart of it is 'Its a third party that is seemingly more powerful than the Big Bad'.
No it's not. It's just "a person/force that's more of a threat or affects a wider range than the Big Bad, but not as much involved". There has never been any implications that it has to be a third party. If you have been reading our discussion, we have agreed that The Man Behind the Man and Bigger Bad can overlap, but only if The Man Behind the Man isn't involved enough to be a Big Bad.

edited 21st Sep '14 11:58:09 AM by SatoshiBakura

DiamondWeapon Since: Jan, 2001
#264: Sep 21st 2014 at 1:30:27 PM

If Bigger Bad is "confusing" to some, Greater Evil is no less so. After all, it literally means the exact same thing and actually conveys less information due to lacking the reference to Big Bad (unless we're also renaming Big Bad to Great Evil).

History says if this is renamed it will probably be something wordy enough to qualify as a whole laconic page.

I object to the trend of requiring overly descriptive trope names. The purpose of names is to make things easier to remember and discuss, not to completely describe them. Cramming a description into the page name to accommodate people too lazy to read the rest of it is not a positive development.

Bigger Bad is not a confusing name. It conveys enough information to set it apart from other relevant tropes. It does not completely elaborate its subject matter, but that's because it's not supposed to. There's a whole page just for that behind one click. What it is is easily remembered and used in a sentence.

We could rename it to Bigger Than The Big Bad But Less Directly Involved (from Laconic.Bigger Bad), but who's gonna remember all that?

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#265: Sep 21st 2014 at 1:49:17 PM

[up] I completely agree with you, but it seems we lost in the crowner, so we have to go for the rename.

Yeah, I like the name Bigger Bad because it displays a connection with Big Bad that Bigger Bad has. But more people want to rename it, so we should decide on new names.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#266: Sep 21st 2014 at 1:57:43 PM

I believe we have reached a consensus. I will get a mod to close the crowner.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#267: Sep 21st 2014 at 2:05:36 PM

Ahem, the crowner is still shifting. It was at 1.88:1 shortly ago and it needs 2:1 anyhow.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#268: Sep 21st 2014 at 2:07:01 PM

You need a two to one ratio in order to have consensus for a rename. Currently this trope fails the standards to be renamed. As it has only been open a week, I'll let it go on a bit longer, but a rename doesn't look likely.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#269: Sep 21st 2014 at 2:46:39 PM

Okay, so a rename doesn't seem to be happening at the moment. I'm alright with that. Let's check back in later and then close the crowner.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#270: Sep 23rd 2014 at 10:53:49 PM

You know, throughout this whole discussion I'm starting to think there is just a lot of confusion over who and what the Big Bad is supposed to be, making a lot of the related tropes suffer as a result. It's probably because it has become a name paired with a definition that is almost at odds with the trope namers. It gets bad when people start saying "The Big Bad of this episode is..." because they are using it interchangeably with a plain ole villain. The Five Bad Band doesn't help, because it outright admits the Big Bad in their team may not be an actual Big Bad. Neither does Arc Villain, because that makes it seem like any enemy who sticks around for a few episodes is a Big Bad.

Big Bad is not "The biggest enemy of the setting," even though it could be. Neither is it "The biggest enemy of the story," even though it could be. At its core it is the biggest villain who leads the threat in the Myth Arc, sometimes that means the entire setting or the individual story (especially in movies), but it is much more narrow than many people are using it. That indicates we might need a review of the Big Bad as a trope and figure out the related tropes from there.

Leaper Since: May, 2009
#271: Sep 23rd 2014 at 11:29:45 PM

Honestly, I think any effort to define Big Bad as anything but "the most prominent villain of any story of any length, from Myth Arc down to the individual episode/issue level" is doomed to fail. It's just too ingrained.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272: Sep 23rd 2014 at 11:40:28 PM

Yep, with 28805 wicks changing the usage of Big Bad is not practical.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MyFinalEdits Delete message from Parts Unknown (Spin-off Series) Relationship Status: Cast away
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#273: Sep 23rd 2014 at 11:51:25 PM

Big Bad is, if I'm not mistaken, the most linked page in the wiki.

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#274: Sep 24th 2014 at 12:57:43 AM

I'm not talking about a repair shop of Big Bad, I'm talking about coming to an agreement within this thread so we can do anything with something like Bigger Bad. Cause if we can't agree on what a Big Bad is, Bigger Bad doesn't stand a chance.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#275: Sep 24th 2014 at 1:30:56 AM

[up] I have to agree, we all seem to have different ideas on what it should be and almost all seem valid tropes.

Maybe make this a super trope to the more literal meaning and the types/uses we agree on?

Like Releasing The Bad In A Can, Man Behind the Man, Third Party Antagonist, Promoted To Big Bad, Sealed Evil As A Battery and so on.

SingleProposition: BiggerBad
14th Sep '14 9:45:59 AM

Crown Description:

Bigger Bad found in: 3294 articles, excluding discussions.

Since January 1, 2012 this article has brought 1,325 people to the wiki from non-search engine links.

Total posts: 410
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