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KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#201: Aug 26th 2014 at 2:59:55 PM

We're not in disagreement. I used the Indiana Jones example because someone used "fights well" (paraphrasing) as their criteria, which I was simply saying was subjective. There are fights where Jones gets completely manhandled by just a mook, but we consider him no less of an Action Hero. Any Action Girl should be judged by similar standards, is all I was saying.

edited 26th Aug '14 3:00:41 PM by KingZeal

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#202: Aug 26th 2014 at 4:19:15 PM

So its basically Bad Ass Girl is what we're coming to. I tend to agree that there needs to be some level of badassery shown to qualify, not just fighting or using force or being in action.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#203: Aug 26th 2014 at 9:03:15 PM

I think a character can qualify as an Action Girl as long as "action" is one of their defining characteristics, rather than just "she gets into fights sometimes".

Say that The Hero and The Rival are in the midst of a struggle. If a female character creeps timidly up behind them and uses a baseball bat to knock the Rival out via Tap on the Head (to everyone's surprise, including her own), then she's not an Action Girl. If she jumps into the fight to help The Hero out and holds her own because she's an established combatant, then she's an Action Girl. If she jumps into the fight and gets her ass kicked despite ostensibly being a competent fighter (and this happens every time she fights anyone), then she's a Faux Action Girl.

edited 26th Aug '14 9:04:14 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#204: Aug 26th 2014 at 11:49:14 PM

That's why I suggested that she be someone who "tends to resolve her problems with force". Just putting herself in danger isn't enough, either, because that would qualify the 1950s version of Lois Lane, who very much wasn't an Action Girl, but was constantly putting herself in danger. "Force" also covers non person-to-person violence, like Man vs Environment.
I still prefer "danger" to "force" as I have a hard time using "force" to describe Man v. Environment scenarios. Although it turned into an argument over the definition of Faux Action Girl, the point in my earlier post about "ability to handle danger" (or in Expospeak, "how much they're adversely affected by actualized danger"), though probably not ready to add to the definition by itself, would probably be sufficient to weed out Lois Lane-type cases.

Nonetheless, I think me, King Zeal, and Another Duck are all orbiting around a fairly workable definition for the second option on the crowner, the problem being that option is too vague to be sure our definition, or any other, will come out of it.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#205: Aug 27th 2014 at 4:06:24 AM

Then there would be unclear differences between this trope and Lady of Adventure, who can also "handle danger", although with cunning or ingenuity moreso than violence.

edited 27th Aug '14 4:10:35 AM by KingZeal

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#206: Aug 27th 2014 at 4:08:46 AM

The focus of Lady of Adventure is not generally fighting, more like adventuring and getting to do exciting stuff.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#207: Aug 27th 2014 at 4:11:52 AM

Yes, which greatly overlaps with "puts herself in/handles danger".

edited 27th Aug '14 4:33:55 AM by KingZeal

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#208: Aug 27th 2014 at 6:47:13 AM

I find it's almost like a subtrope, but also probably covers a few less action-oriented characters. One that basically is one where you could say the character is frequently an Action Girl, but not a necessity.

Check out my fanfiction!
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#209: Aug 28th 2014 at 9:45:30 AM

Anyone thought of stickying a post as the "header" of this thread that contains an up-to-date summary of the conclusions and decisions that this TRS has reached? Because I am hesitant about having to read through all the previous pages before contributing.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#210: Aug 28th 2014 at 11:02:31 AM

Summary so far. Let me know if I've missed anything

Basically 3 years ago there was a TRS about this that decided Action Girl should be a Super-Trope with no examples, and all examples should go under one of the many subtropes listed on the page. However after making this decision they never really did anything about it and now Action Girl is mis/overused and full of Zero Context Examples.

The thread has been trying to figure out if we should pick up where the old TRS left off and make it a broad supertrope (winning out in the crowner) which would entail a massive clean up of moving most of the examples into one of the subtropes, or fleshing out the thousands of ZCE.

Or if we should redefine it into a more specific trope than 'female character who fights' (which would also require a massive cleanup where we cut everything that doesnt match the new definition)

Arguments for keeping it as broad as 'female character who fights' tend to lean on the fact that on a macro cultural level we still assume that Men Act, Women Are or Women Are Delicate or just in general men are more likely to fight than women. Ergo any woman who fights defies Real Life cultural expectations in some way and that should be good enough.

As King Zeal put it: The entire purpose for Women Are Delicate and Men Are Tough was to establish the gender dynamics that provide the foundation for every other trope. For the moment, Action Girl is a trope which has two parts—part one is the in-universe "what this trope is" (i.e., Force + Woman). Part two is the out-of-universe "baggage which makes this trope significant" (i.e., it's considered odd in Real Life for both real women and female characters). That's the trope, in its entirety, as we've used it up to now.

And from Septimus: In the wild Action Girl is used broadly and the usages cannot be pigeonholed into one defined narrow archetype. As shown below there's a lot of disagreement as to what that narrow archetype would even be, so it would be best for it to remain broad and encompass everything.

Proposed narrowing of the definition that have gained traction:

  • The Female Fighter: Action Girls should be warriors, or fighters (or pilots, adventurers, combatants or another profession of 'action') In Universe
    • An Action Girl must participate in a serious way in a serious action sequence
    • A fanservice pillow fight or cheap catfight or hitting someone over the head once is not enough to really be considered an 'action girl'
    • Just putting yourself in danger or situations that require force is not enough because that could mean you're a Damsel in Distress or just have the Idiot Ball all the time.
  • Can Keep Up With The Boys: A woman who is competent at 'action' or 'using force.'
    • A woman who is at least as competent at action or using force as male peers in her Super Weight.
    • If a woman can fight mooks competently without superpowers, she's still an action girl even if her male peers are Physical Gods who go toe to toe with the Big Bad in ways she can't. The main thing is she's expected to fight and isn't The Load.
  • The Tough Chick: Action Girl is more about attitude and is a specific character archetype
    • A woman who is prone to or comfortable using force or action to solve problems
    • A woman who is bold and tough in ways that defy Women Are Delicate or a woman who is tough in ways you would expect men to be tough.
    • Under this defintion things like Girly Bruiser or Lady of War may or may not overlap with Action Girl because they might not have the "Action Girl attitude/personality." Even though they can all use force competently.
  • The Notable Action Girl: An Action Girl is a woman who fights only when being a woman who fights is notable for reasons that may vary from work to work
    • I.e. Not all Magical Girls are notable Action Girls because the genre is built on the assumption that girls will be fighting.
    • Not all female player characters in an action game are notable Action Girls just because playing as them is not an instant lose condition. By being playable you assume its possible for them to fight and win.
    • However if the characters are sending an explicit Girl Power message they may qualify.
  • Bad Ass Woman: Action Girl is just "Bad Ass Woman" but without that snowclone name, for whatever definition of Bad Ass you subscribe to.

But its possible to make Action Girl a broad supertrope and make the proposed narrowed definitions new subtropes. And not all of these subtropes are mutually exclusive to each other.

Either way, anything we decide will take a lot of effort to enforce or put in to practice.

edited 28th Aug '14 12:30:10 PM by acrobox

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#211: Aug 28th 2014 at 11:46:22 AM

* A woman who is competent at 'action' or 'using force.' this definition discredits Faux Action Girls who may be trained warriors but consistently fail

How does this discredit Faux Action Girl? If Action Girl is "competent female action character" and Faux Action Girl is "supposedly competent female action character," then how does the former invalidate the latter? I feel like I'm missing something in your summary.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#212: Aug 28th 2014 at 12:03:06 PM

discredit ma be a poor choice of words, making edits

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#213: Aug 28th 2014 at 12:05:53 PM

I would like to add to the "keep broad" arguments (since you overlooked them for some reason) that in the wild Action Girl is used broadly and the usages cannot be pigeonholed into one defined narrow archetype.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#214: Aug 28th 2014 at 12:09:52 PM

For the record, Can Keep Up With The Boys is the narrow I support the most, and acrobox did an amazing job summing it up (as well as the other proposals, I might add).

Overall, I'm more for a broad trope, but if it IS narrowed, that's the one which makes the most sense to me.

edited 28th Aug '14 12:11:14 PM by KingZeal

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#215: Aug 28th 2014 at 12:10:18 PM

[up] [up] definitely, anything else you would like to add?

[up] After laying it out, my vote is also to keep Action Girl broad and move as much as we can into subtropes. But I would also like to take The Tough Chick to YKTTW and make it a new subtrope, because i think its becoming a more and more common archetype for the leading lady, tending to replace or at least merge with the traditional implicitly passive, demure, or stereo-typically feminine Chick in group dynamics.

edited 28th Aug '14 12:44:46 PM by acrobox

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#216: Aug 28th 2014 at 12:40:33 PM

If narrowed I'd go for the Tough Chick definition. It may or may not need to include the point about expectations from the trope below.

Badass Woman is not narrowing the trope, though. That's what the supertrope would be.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#217: Aug 28th 2014 at 1:55:36 PM

CKUWTB and Tough Chick both have a lot of overlap. The main difference is, I see attitude as being inconsequential, with actions being the only thing that matters.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#218: Aug 28th 2014 at 3:02:09 PM

@Acrobox: As King Zeal put it, you did an amazing job writing up that summary. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Anyway, I too agree that the narrowed down archetypes can serve as broad subtropes of the Action Girl supertrope, though with the caveat that, pending definitive evidence to the contrary, other subtropes like Lady of War and Girly Bruiser may not necessarily overlap with any of these archetypes. Also, it seems that the crowner is overwhelmingly in favor of making Action Girl into a broad supertrope, which I support as well.

PS: For the record, I was a contributor to the last couple of TRS threads on this trope, so I have a good idea of how frustrating trying to fix this trope once and for all has been. There were even those who proposed cutting it outright on the logic that it's far too gone.

Badass Woman is not narrowing the trope, though. That's what the supertrope would be.
I would say that it's a starting point for what the supertrope would be. I believe there were objections made in the past to making Action Girl merely be "female Badass" as an oversimplification that runs afoul of The Same But More Specific (i.e. we should be asking ourselves "What makes female badasses distinct enough to merit their own trope?"). Besides, from my observations, common usage of Action Girl appears to treat it under the logic of "a female being an Action Girl does not automatically make her a true badass", hence why some Action Girl characters have Badass listed separately on their character sheets' trope lists while others do not.

edited 28th Aug '14 3:06:58 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#219: Aug 28th 2014 at 3:40:40 PM

It has to be that broad, Marq. What do Lady of War, Little Miss Badass, Girly Bruiser etc all have in common apart from 'woman/girl who can fight?' Presumably the basis for the trope is contrast. The reader isn't supposed to expect women to be badass because delicate etc. but they are. So the trope narrows from Badass to Action Girl to Lady of War.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#220: Aug 28th 2014 at 9:38:01 PM

I like the Can Keep Up With The Boys definition for Action Girl best, as that fits my understanding of what the original Action Girl trope was supposed to be, but I admit that at this point it may be best to just call Action Girl a supertrope and have everything listed as a subtrope.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#221: Aug 29th 2014 at 12:38:55 AM

By the way, the crowner is strongly leaning towards supertrope; I think we can call it soon. Also, ~Assiqtaq, when you are posting in a thread, you add new posts with the "add post" button.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#222: Aug 29th 2014 at 12:59:09 PM

Calling crowner for supertrope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#223: Aug 29th 2014 at 1:31:21 PM

So should I go ahead and delete the examples on the Action Girl page?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#224: Aug 29th 2014 at 1:32:20 PM

No, because supertrope doesn't imply exampleless.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#225: Aug 29th 2014 at 3:16:42 PM

Not that it much matters with the crowner called (although I still think a) this thread should have been headlined before the crowner was called and b) the narrow-the-definition option was betrayed by its own vagueness), but I think I should repost my history of this trope from the last thread.

edited 29th Aug '14 3:18:58 PM by MorganWick

PageAction: FixActionGirl
20th Aug '14 7:07:10 PM

Crown Description:

Action Girl is filled with Zero Context Examples. The definition is bloated and nebulous.

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