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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#177: Aug 26th 2014 at 9:13:26 AM

Another vote for Melon and Sep's definition of Faux Action Girl. I never saw that as in question.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#178: Aug 26th 2014 at 9:24:07 AM

That's fine with me as a definition if it's actually a trope. I'm not sure it is. Is there some reason it must be female specific?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#179: Aug 26th 2014 at 9:26:55 AM

Well, writers may feel compelled to have Action Girls to not look sexist and end up writing a Faux Action Girl because they didn't give her, you know, any actual Action.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#180: Aug 26th 2014 at 9:35:45 AM

Action Girl doesn't require competence. Neither does Badass, even if male. Shouldn't it be that the author failed to make the character (not girl) competent?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#181: Aug 26th 2014 at 9:37:39 AM

So what? Do you want to rename the trope Faux Badass?

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#182: Aug 26th 2014 at 9:44:20 AM

As I said before, the point of the trope is to point out a Double Standard. If we're abandoning that, it becomes an entirely different trope altogether.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#183: Aug 26th 2014 at 10:15:10 AM

^^ Maybe. Someone not living up to their hype in combat seems pretty gender neutral if that's all there is to it.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#184: Aug 26th 2014 at 10:17:57 AM

Sure, I'm not proposing anything myself. I'm fine with Faux Action Girl keeping it's current name.

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#185: Aug 26th 2014 at 10:24:42 AM

Remeber this isnt about Faux Action Girl, this is about Action Girl

That said i think most agree, Faux Action Girl is when being a woman of action is an Informed Attribute which usually means failing at her stated competence level or Super Weight.

Taking that into consideration Action Girl in the broadest sense becomes 'having a competence level equal to or greater than her male peers and living up to that standard'

edited 26th Aug '14 10:37:54 AM by acrobox

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#186: Aug 26th 2014 at 10:31:16 AM

No one's forgotten what we're here for, calm down.

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#187: Aug 26th 2014 at 10:38:14 AM

Very calm. How's your tuesday going?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#189: Aug 26th 2014 at 10:51:45 AM

I don't think Action Girl can require competence as a supertrope since its subtropes have no such requirement.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#190: Aug 26th 2014 at 10:53:17 AM

So if a woman gets into a Wimp Fight where all they do is ineffectually slap at their opponent, they would still count as an Action Girl?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#191: Aug 26th 2014 at 10:54:45 AM

Nah, I wouldn't consider that. Too passive and ineffective to count as "Action".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#192: Aug 26th 2014 at 10:55:07 AM

It's not about competence, just living up to their hype.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#193: Aug 26th 2014 at 10:55:36 AM

^^^ Do you consider than an actual fight? That sounds more like a fighter attacking a noncombatant.

edited 26th Aug '14 10:56:20 AM by Arha

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#194: Aug 26th 2014 at 11:01:17 AM

It still technically counts as fighting. And the person they're fighting with might be just as wimpy a fighter as they are.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#195: Aug 26th 2014 at 11:11:58 AM

Okay, I'll insert the assumption that we're supposed to consider the character in your example as a combatant. In that case I would say that Action Girl as a supertrope will still be a subtrope of Badass. If they qualify as a Badass then yes. If they don't, then they aren't an Action Girl either. Holding them a standard greater than that, however, would probably be outside the scope of how we are trying to define this. In the event that the ineffectual weakling was supposed to be, say, a Little Miss Badass then I guess the chain backward would be Little Miss Badass -> Action Girl -> Badass by necessity.

So the answer is not quite clear or definite depending on context. However, what Action Girl can't be is something that defines itself as being dependent on the male characters in the story or that kind of thing.

edited 26th Aug '14 11:13:24 AM by Arha

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#196: Aug 26th 2014 at 12:56:34 PM

We're coming dangerously close to trying to define a trope while simultaneously believing it; by that I mean that we're placing the potential Action Girl trope under more scrutiny than we'd place a theoretical male counterpart. To me, that demonstrates one of the more insidious sides of this gender dynamic—that we expect women to WOW us before we consider them "tough" while men don't need to do half the same.
Exaggerations aside, it's fairly natural to expect someone breaking stereotypes to actually break them, rather than to just push a little bit in that direction.

And that about competence and comparison with Indy, that's pretty much why I emphasise what situation the potential Action Girl puts herself in, rather than how competently she solves problems. Indy might not be the biggest badass there is, but he's certainly not letting that stop him from engaging in all the action he can, as he's constantly putting himself in danger. There's also a lot of non-combat action (man vs environment type) going on there, which I think is a neglected part of the trope (which may or may not be a qualifier of its own, but still about physical action).

[up]She can be dependent on others, if others are also dependent on her.

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#197: Aug 26th 2014 at 1:00:44 PM

That's not how I used the word dependent.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#198: Aug 26th 2014 at 1:18:39 PM

Exaggerations aside, it's fairly natural to expect someone breaking stereotypes to actually break them, rather than to just push a little bit in that direction.

As I mentioned before, that's a No True Scotsman argument waiting to happen. And it's also a Double Standard in and of itself. Basically, it's an argument that the only "real" way to break a stereotype is to completely shatter any sign of it to some arbitrary standard set by the judge. To put it in perspective, it's like saying the only way to break the Scary Black Man trope is for said Black man to be Kawaii while at the same time, a man of no other ethnicity has to go to such lengths.

And that about competence and comparison with Indy, that's pretty much why I emphasise what situation the potential Action Girl puts herself in, rather than how competently she solves problems. Indy might not be the biggest badass there is, but he's certainly not letting that stop him from engaging in all the action he can, as he's constantly putting himself in danger. There's also a lot of non-combat action (man vs environment type) going on there, which I think is a neglected part of the trope (which may or may not be a qualifier of its own, but still about physical action).

That's why I suggested that she be someone who "tends to resolve her problems with force". Just putting herself in danger isn't enough, either, because that would qualify the 1950s version of Lois Lane, who very much wasn't an Action Girl, but was constantly putting herself in danger. "Force" also covers non person-to-person violence, like Man vs Environment.

edited 26th Aug '14 1:20:02 PM by KingZeal

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#199: Aug 26th 2014 at 1:41:16 PM

That doesn't work with the winning option on the crowner, though. Wouldn't a Lady of War often try to avoid conflict altogether?

edited 26th Aug '14 1:41:38 PM by Arha

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#200: Aug 26th 2014 at 1:59:50 PM

[up]Not necessarily. A Lady of War can have a fairly aggressive mentality, just with the grace the trope requires.

[up][up]You can just as easily tilt it in the other direction, by claiming a not-quite-so-feeble-yet-mostly-harmless woman is breaking the stereotype. Or that black dude merely being intimidating rather than scary. Line has to be drawn somewhere.

Otherwise I more or less agree. I didn't claim putting herself in danger was the only qualifier, but it's an important part of the trope.

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PageAction: FixActionGirl
20th Aug '14 7:07:10 PM

Crown Description:

Action Girl is filled with Zero Context Examples. The definition is bloated and nebulous.

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