Mortal Kombat

Okay I'm gonna need more than 2 examples, one of which is several years dated.

The way you make it sound, every Goddamn game released in recent memory has a fallen hero of some kind which is obviously untrue.

edited 20th Nov '17 6:30:38 AM by slimcoder

Very well. What kind of game: Western game? Or a reboot game? And how recent? (WOW may be dated, but it's still ongoing that I put it on anyway) And how many more you need? (Also, by default it's 3. You didn't count on Injustice, especially 2)

It may take time, though.

edited 20th Nov '17 6:47:14 AM by ChrisX

"they pretty much did take the same path with lui kang just in a shorter amount of time. "

Kinda, in old timeline it was the same liu kang just with is body taken over, here Kang while being brainwashing, on the other have part of being a reveant is your darkest impulse are used against you, this is soport in chapter 10 of X when Kang get so much rage for raiden apologizing, losing control and allow Raiden to counter atack him.

"You're describing the same character with different words."

Not really, Super and Cap have their niceness as definite trait, they are icons and hopebringers and if a trait people really dislike if they dont show it, just look the complains about Super not being as warm in BVS thread or onwards, Kang dosent have that.

"You seriously think fans of Liu Kang see his current direction as the true version? "

Why not? there is a clear linear path that drove him what it is, this is not like comics that by rebooting and chaging so much you need to mantain a consistent personality(and to be fair, that only happen to Nice supers, look batman who have been from superman-lite to crazy steve).

" all of them are wearing variations of the same outift."

Both they are diferent, liu kang have pretty much the good damn same suit.

"I wouldn't say that if NRS was the only offender in this... look at Blizzard and their magnum opus..."

actually I will said blizzard have trouble with their anti heroes: Ilidian? decent to villian in buring crusade, same with Kael talas, they try to make Garrosh into a extremist but with good heart like Varian decent into Orc Hitler while Varia itself manage to be a good guy with a hero death.

"I believe a good storytelling or characterization doesn't always have to depend on 'Make that guy a Fallen Hero or jump off the slippery slope' whenever they want to shake the status quo."

But bad storytelling dosent always have to wih that, Blizzard have trouble balancing gameplay and story, MK does have with their chararter(sub zero beng sideline AGAIN is good example), I belive their use of fallen hero being intersting, the same thing with Injustice(and I hate Batman being so incorruptable, is annoying)

"But what if you were a fan of those who were put on Revenant state forever, and see them embrace evilhood without remorse?"

My favorite chararter is Raiden actually, aside of having most fan shit on him for what happen MK 9, being kick almost to death in MKX, I dont mind him as punisher now because Im intersting in how his story will play rather that where he should be good or not.

Also, his dark outfit totally kick ass.

Blizz just got a tendency to listen to the wrong kind of people. From whiners that never accepted Garrosh despite his change (thus getting him to change into Orc Hitler) to the kind of people that just wanted moar and moar faction wars so the lore characters were made to grab Conflict Ball so often that... gah, it could take a blog post that I'm making about this with lots of cursing, screaming and profanities at elements I don't like (OK, kidding on the last part from cursing...). Bottom line, yeah.

Actually, there's one time Liu Kang actually changed his outfit. Remember his MK 1 outfit? Black tights, no headband...

Why not? there is a clear linear path that drove him what it is,

I'm afraid you mistook 'your preferred version' as 'true version'. A lot of people made that mistake. There's a difference. You can ask yourself this to confirm: When you think of 'Liu Kang', what's the first that comes to mind?

All in all, you seem to not like goody two shoes characters. Okay. Unfortunately, I DO like Goody-two-shoes.

edited 20th Nov '17 8:28:18 AM by ChrisX

Bruce Lee clone & can turn into a dragon.

There is no goody-two shoes character in this franchise.

edited 20th Nov '17 8:34:39 AM by slimcoder

Takaeda, Jaqui and Cassie more or less fit that description.

@unkowing Lou's death in the original timeline was the beginning of MK's Cerberus syndrome. Look at what happened following his death; almost all the main heroes died and Raiden became corrupted. In Armageddon Johnny flat out states that things feel hopeless without Liu. In the MK movies, he's the one destined to defeat the main villain. I don't get how you came away with the conclusion that Lou's niceness wasn't a defining trait.

edited 20th Nov '17 9:15:58 AM by windleopard

Here's the thing about Liu.

Liu Kang has never been my favorite character. Johnny Cage was actually my favorite in the old timeline, followed shortly after by Scorpion and some of the villains like Shang Tsung and Shao Kahn.

But he didn't have to be. That's not the point of Liu. He's the baseline. The straight-man hero. His character had value not from being the most interesting or compelling character, but from being the generically good guy whose heroic traits and positive qualities create a contrast with the other characters in the cast.

In a cast full of characters who range from "flawed but their hearts are in the right place" to "complete Jerkass", having that one purely good guy to compare them to helped to highlight those character traits.

Like sure, Johnny Cage is a bit douchey, but that's because he's standing next to Liu Kang. Sonya might seem overly aggressive and prickly, but that's because she's standing next to Liu Kang. Kung Lao easily comes across as jealous and insecure because he's standing next to Liu Kang. Etc. etc.

As The Hero of the group, Liu made everyone else stand out by the way they compared to Liu Kang.

I think what needs to be realized is that Liu is no longer the Hero. Cassies group is & since Liu is no longer the guy everyone can play off as then he needs to do something.

Said it best. Especially Takaeda who if you take out his father issues is pretty much the nicest guy ever.

edited 20th Nov '17 9:21:55 AM by slimcoder

That, I do agree with. Like I said before, I was kinda offended by the whole Zombie Liu Kang thing which felt immensely disrespectful to the franchise's biggest hero, especially when coupled with all the other protagonists promptly becoming useless.

Seriously, it's not just Liu that got screwed. The whole protagonist cast in Deadly Alliance promptly had a bridge dropped on them, then they were sort of around as Onaga's deadly enforcers in Deception but only in the lore, never actually appearing in the game proper. And then everyone died again in Armageddon.

MK 2011 brought them all back mostly to drop a bridge on them again at the end, but at least they all got a moment in the spotlight before that happened, and two of them made it out to be the Big Goods of X. Meanwhile, in addition to Johnny and Sonya's treatment in X, we have Liu and Kitana back in a legitimately interesting new place that promises some actual plot relevance.

Of the main six heroes, it's now just Jax and Kung Lao who are still sitting in the "Get F*cked" camp, and who knows; their Revenants could easily show up in the next MK working for Liu and Kitana.

It's a question of attitude, more than anything. Deadly Alliance killed all the heroes and then shunted them offscreen because who f*cking cares about timeless classic characters when we have THIS NEW GUY to drool over, amirite?! MK 2011 killed half of the heroes in order to give bold new roles to both the living and dead sets of classic characters in propelling the narrative forward.

EDIT: Of note, another thing that really made it feel like Liu was getting screwed out of spite in the Old Timeline is that it made a lot of use of Death Is Cheap. Characters died constantly and got revivals all the time. Johnny died so much it became a running joke. But then Liu died and nope! F*ck you, Liu Kang, you get to be the only character ever to die for real.

The new timeline has a lot more perma-death in it, which makes the killing of likable protagonists less obnoxious.

edited 20th Nov '17 11:54:10 AM by TobiasDrake

Wait, Jax? Jax was back to normal. His whole deal was dealing with his daughter fighting.

Oh, yeah, you're right. I totally forgot about Jax getting healed.

So it's just Kung Lao who's screwed out of an important narrative role right now, being a glorified mook. I hope he shows up in the next game as, like, Liu and Kitana's revenant Darth Vader or something.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:02:42 PM by TobiasDrake

I wouldn't say Kitana is in a much better position. Lore wise back in the old timeline she had been leading an army against outworld and if I remember correctly made an alliance with gorro's people. Sure she and the other heroes fell to the deadly alliance, but new timeline she gets murdered by her mother and never has a chance to either free her realm.

So minus Sonya and johnny most of the heroes just got shafted again this time a lot faster then they did in the original timeline.

She's not in a better place in terms of what her character accomplishes, but she has more of a presence in the actual story presented onscreen.

X did with the deceased heroes what Deception only hinted at in the Lore; they stuck around as Shinnok's enforcers and provided a deadly challenge for the surviving heroes to overcome. They got to do stuff rather than being shoved into Camp Background Story for the remainder of the original timeline.

Like, Deception has this whole interesting plotline about Liu Kang's spirit forming an alliance with Ermac and together they defeat all of the undead heroes and restore them to life, which is fascinating stuff. Too bad it all happens offscreen and you only get to hear about it via Ermac's arcade ending 'cause we got Shujinko Adventures to be having!

edited 20th Nov '17 12:05:08 PM by TobiasDrake

Going by his & Kung Jin's ending Kung Lao has a high chance of redemtion so hopefully he finds himself.

Also hoping Smoke returns so we can learn more about his deal with Enenra.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:07:46 PM by slimcoder

deadly alliance conquest mode highlights what the characters were doing so not everything was off screen before they decided to make a story mode focused on one character.

Which does mean they are not better off. They shafted the heroes achievements for the same end result with the only exception being that their being enslaved is being utilized as an actual plot point.

"'m afraid you mistook 'your preferred version' as 'true version'."

No, I cut "true version" because is just "how people want him" or "what people EXPECT" him to be, the true version is current version on play, if that is well liked or not that is another thing, when people picture flash for example, the want a red suit guy who crack jokes, not caring what person is the suit unless they are avid readers.

"All in all, you seem to not like goody two shoes characters. Okay. Unfortunately, I DO like Goody-two-shoes. "

I do as well, but I disliek when that become contractual purity is that ether the good guy must be totally good all the time or otherwise is not his "true self" it become annoying, my dislike for batman come from the double standar of him being from silly(the true and the bold) to superman lite(Nolan trilogy) to Crazy steve, with people debating the merit of each other but another like Superman need to mantain in what one expect him to be.

"Look at what happened following his death; almost all the main heroes died and Raiden became corrupted. In Armageddon Johnny flat out states that things feel hopeless without Liu. In the MK movies, he's the one destined to defeat the main villain. I don't get how you came away with the conclusion that Lou's niceness wasn't a defining trait."

That have to be with DA being bluff as hell and Onaga being invicible thanks to medallion, in cage bio he lament both Raiden and Kang dead and how nothing is the same anymore(and yet he step as leader) Kang trait was a) being the champion of the mortal kombat b) being shaolin and.....that it, is overall lack of personality was huge problem with MK Team.

"Deadly Alliance killed all the heroes and then shunted them offscreen because who f*cking cares about timeless classic characters when we have THIS NEW GUY to drool over, amirite?!"

Because the old chararter were getting sacred cow status, and een does to this day: Kang and Kitana have not buissness being playable chararters while other like fujin should be, MK overlies in clasics for clasic sake, I really expect Cage to be NPC in next game but I doubt it.

Also, I dont want to so bad about it, is hard to see how people complain about Kang being evil when Raiden just show up in a darker outfit, bringing shinnok head and vowin destruction to any fucker who cross him while hitting there is things worst than death....

It shouldn't be a shock that people enjoy having their favorite characters return from both a story and gameplay perspective.

I think they could have done something else rather than just kill off a chunk of the cast again to make then servants to the villain of the game.

I preferred the ending kang has in MK 9 arcade where he becomes a God and takes matters into his own hands regarding protection of earthrealm. Would have made for different choice and would be better then going fallen hero.

Well its all subjective in the end either way.

If it's subjective, especially "What people liked the most", then it's not the "True version". It's the "Preferred version." or "Current version". It's different.

For some, when they toss former heroes into villainy status willy nilly, then the show fall deep into Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy: They don't know who to cheer anymore. It's subjective for a reason. It's not about who's the hero or not.

It's about who's good and who's evil to me. People call out heroes when they had a Heel turn and being glad when villains redeem themselves. Subjective? I guess. There are cases when people think Evil Is Cool. But are people who follow the former having lame tastes? That's also subjective.

Also... please fix the grammar. Sometimes it's hard to understand your words, unknowing. Go to 'Help with Grammar' topic if you would...

Since he ends up being Drunk with Power as seen in Shang Tsung's end... not sure if I would like it in the end. Kitana's MK9 ending would be something that's more like the thing I would prefer.

Onto a new topic, does anyone remember the supposed leaks for MKXI? The one that puts Dark Raiden as Big Bad and an improved story of Armageddon (with Taven and Daegon) and a dream deity which also brought back Jade (explaining her absence in X)?

edited 20th Nov '17 3:32:17 PM by ChrisX

Every one of the Earthrealm heroes besides Liu Kang has always been a scrub. The fact Sonya or Jax got annihilated in DA shouldn't come as a surprise.

And while it's true Death Was Cheap in the old continuity, DA was the first MK that really wanted to focus on story more. It made things considerably more dramatic and less hokey. And I maintain that, whatever other improvements the writing undertook with MK 9, Liu's death in MK 9 is positively pathetic and far more insulting than his demise in Deadly Alliance. If you have to kill off the guy who's so strong that he's such a game changer, at least give him his dignity.

edited 20th Nov '17 4:45:07 PM by Nikkolas

Death is cheap in the new one, too.

Half the people who were killed in 9 are alive again.

Um, I think it just means they still 'existed' somehow, not having their existence obliterated. Your words make sense only if you consider 'being an undead revenant' alive. Things like "I think, therefore I am" philosophy.

edited 20th Nov '17 5:19:22 PM by ChrisX

No. They're dead.

They exist, but they're not any more alive than all the halo'd people in Dragon Ball.

"The fact Sonya or Jax got annihilated in DA shouldn't come as a surprise."

Dont even try men, MK dosent give a shit about power levels, anyone can beat anyone here, just look how Sonya and Jax chapter where they beat reveant in the netherealm.

" then the show fall deep into Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy: They don't know who to cheer anymore. It's subjective for a reason. It's not about who's the hero or not."

I dont think you can claim this time around: Liu kang have issue with Raiden and it show, as for the rest there is hope to return them to light, as for Raiden...I feel he is lost already.

"It's about who's good and who's evil to me. People call out heroes when they had a Heel turn and being glad when villains redeem themselves. Subjective? I guess."

For me is about the story: until MKX, the sheer idea of Hanzo finally becoming Human and being redem was silly but they make it work. Hell they even manage to make Jax intersing. on the other hand Jaine turing radical in WOW was stupid, not because she was nice girl but because nothing really go out of it, she just turn nasty and....that it.

"does anyone remember the supposed leaks for MKXI?"

That wasnt leaks but the endings of MKX: Kang become the new lord of the netheream, is reveal that same entity who take Jade somehow give Kitana a vision of her winning against Khan in old timeline and now she HATES Raiden for changing everything, Raiden recruit Hanzo and Shirai Ryu to atack outworld and Kotal invoked the Mortal Kombat and Bo rai cho train outworlders to defend is realm, Johnny find out Tsung is active again with his trick, Kano is traing his son, Reptile finally found a remanet of his race, Mileena return in a plot of Tsung and he steal the souls of Ermac, all while Kenshi and Takeda wake up Taven and atack Daegon.

Which it open the question....WERE IS ONAGA IN ALL THIS?.

Okay I have no idea what you're arguing in favour of. You just seem to be all over the place.

Johnny stepped up as leader and failed. Liu had as much personality as anyone else before the games started employing cutscenes in story mode. That doesn't change the fact that being a paragon before was his thing otherwise his turning evil would have no weight to it. in MK 4 the guy even turns down a chance to be with Kitana to stay as Earth's champion.