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Hyrule Warriors/Zelda Musou (Spoiler Warning in effect)

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Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#3201: Jan 27th 2017 at 12:28:02 AM

Her C4 is probably your best bet.

I sure said that!
GreatT HOT DOG Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
HOT DOG
#3202: Jan 27th 2017 at 12:39:18 AM

@3191 Richard could work, if they crib some elements from his game of origin. turning into a frog could be an interesting element.

edited 27th Jan '17 12:39:29 AM by GreatT

When you wish upon a side of beef, soon will come an end to all your grief
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#3203: Jan 27th 2017 at 2:48:05 PM

[up][up][up] and [up][up] Thanks again. I ended up not trying again last night (schoolwork), but I should have time to finish the first map this weekend. A-ranking A1 and getting like three more Heart Containers is all I have left to do there. Unfortunately, one of them is beating A1 again... as Agitha.

I also started the Master Quest map (I'd forgotten what a beast Volga was) and noticed the damage threshold for A-ranks has been lowered from 10,000 to, I'm guessing, 5,000. I gotta get better at using Zelda's baton.

EDIT: [up] I wouldn't object to Richard, but on some level the idea of having a non-Zelda character in Hyrule Warriors II bugs me a bit. There are more than enough OCs as it is (and Linkle is the only one I really like). If I were in charge of making the game, I'd keep Linkle and Lana but cut Cia, Wizzro, and Volga.

edited 27th Jan '17 2:49:49 PM by ThriceCharming

Ekimmak Since: Nov, 2010
#3204: Jan 27th 2017 at 2:51:30 PM

Agitha isn't that bad. Use C3, dodge-cancel, use C3, dodge-cancel... as long as you remain aware of where the captains are, it's a good combo.

Great Fairy is probably the best option for knocking 1000 kill maps in short order, due to her insane attack range and long term invincibility frames. You just have to be careful for enemies that cheat (ie Argorok).

lycropath Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#3205: Jan 27th 2017 at 3:06:52 PM

Wizzro at least looks like he belongs in a Zelda game. Lana's probably the worst offender of Non-Standard Character Design in the cast though.

edited 27th Jan '17 3:07:13 PM by lycropath

ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#3206: Jan 27th 2017 at 3:23:25 PM

[up][up] That's a good strategy when the enemies are packed together, but the Stalchildren in A1 are spread infuriatingly far apart. I'll give it a shot, though.

[up] Agreed, but she's a major ally and becomes the bearer of the Triforce of Power in the Standard Hyrule Warriors Setting/Timeline (for lack of a better word), so we can't really get rid of her.

I don't remember if I've said this before, but Lana is the very definition of a Mary Sue. Wacky-colored hair, in-universe fangirl, close relationship to the hero, and so on. She's a cutie and fun to play as, though, so I don't mind her all that much.

EDIT: As for Wizzro, my headcanon is that he is (or is somehow related to) the Ghost Collector from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask.

edited 27th Jan '17 3:24:16 PM by ThriceCharming

whizzerd Transcender of Gender from Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Transcender of Gender
#3207: Jan 27th 2017 at 3:29:51 PM

Man, it's 2017 and people are still using Sue terms unironically?

Anyway, it makes sense that Wizzro or Volga might not reappear since it's sorta heavily implied they died, but they're way too cool for me not to want them to return. Not to mention they bring better variety to a rogues gallery that's 90% all about Ganondorf. Wizzro can change allegiances at the drop of a hat without it being out-of-character, whilst Volga is explicitly anti-alliance. Add in 'I'll do whatever shit's fun' Skull Kid/Majora and you got a good party going.

they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob
lycropath Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#3208: Jan 27th 2017 at 3:39:31 PM

[up][up]Wizzro's already got a backstory though? He's an Artifact of Doom given physical form by Cia.

Where the ring comes from though who knows but part of me wants to say from the Fires of Mount Doom- er Death Mountain..

edited 27th Jan '17 3:40:18 PM by lycropath

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#3209: Jan 27th 2017 at 3:40:24 PM

I could just as easily see a proper sequel being a reboot, given the pedigree of Musou.

I sure said that!
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#3210: Jan 27th 2017 at 3:42:15 PM

Common Mary Sue Traits are still a thing. The Mary Sue is still a legitimate phenomenon in my opinion. The problem is that bitter fanboys now cry "Mary Sue!" whenever they see a female character they don't like for whatever reason (see: Rey from Star Wars: The Force Awakens).

As for the other thing, I don't think you need OCs to round out the villains' army. Besides Ganondorf, Zant, and Ghirahim, there's Skull Kid (a great candidate for a mid-game Heel–Face Turn), Vaati, Veran, Onox, and I haven't played A Link Between Worlds but Yuga is a bad guy, right? So Yuga. And he's already in Legends, even.

There's also Demise if you don't want Ganon/dorf to be the Big Bad.

whizzerd Transcender of Gender from Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Transcender of Gender
#3211: Jan 27th 2017 at 3:50:59 PM

But if we're defining Lana as a Sue just because she has weird coloured hair and likes the hero then Saria's a Sue too. It's a term too vague to mean anything that gets shoehorned into everything.

I agree that I'd want HW to prioritise existing villains rather than create new ones, but Wizzro and Volga already exist now. It'd be counter-productive to push them to the wayside. Plus I said I would like a rogues gallery that's less about Ganon/dorf, not filled with all the villains that he's hijacked.

they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#3212: Jan 27th 2017 at 4:37:30 PM

Mary Sues are like porn. An exact definition is hard to pin down, but you know one when you see it. I'd say Lana is a Sue (or something uncomfortably close to a Sue) whereas Saria is not.

As for Ganondorf, I like him. I think he's a dope bad guy, and I don't like the other bad guys any less for being "hijacked" by him. One idea I had is that he could come back kind of like Slade did in season four of Teen Titans, as a harbinger for Demise. Demoted to Dragon, so to speak. I think that's a comfortable median.

lycropath Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#3213: Jan 27th 2017 at 4:44:50 PM

Demise is probably the only thing in that currently exists that I can say reasonably trumps Ganondorf in terms of scale but I'm not sure thats saying much given his status as the primordial source of all evil in Hyrule.

Still I don't really know what kind of plot they can do with both of them present since they are kind of sort of supposed to be the same-ish kind of. It might be redundant.

But Demise would make a really rad overpowered bonus character like Lu Bu I think.

edited 27th Jan '17 4:46:55 PM by lycropath

ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#3214: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:23:45 PM

If there's a sequel, I hope it's not a reboot. I wanna see more of the Warriors setting and how it interacts with the different canonical eras and timelines.

I've noticed that whenever I think a Zelda game is fine as a stand-alone, it gets a direct sequel (see: Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker), but when I think one could use a direct sequel, it stays a stand-alone (see: Twilight Princess). This probably means I shouldn't expect much continuity if and when Hyrule Wariors II comes around.

Ekimmak Since: Nov, 2010
#3215: Jan 27th 2017 at 6:58:04 PM

Yuga is the only person to arguably avoid a Ganon hijacking despite using his power, and that could easily be because there was no reason to, since Yuga was already going around doing the sorts of things that get the Demon King of Evil Stamp of Approval.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3216: Jan 27th 2017 at 7:40:46 PM

The term Mary Sue has been bastardized somewhat, usually as a misogyny-couching justification to complain about female characters in prominent roles. However, the classic traits and definition still exist under all that gunk, so it shouldn't be thrown out as a criticism just because other people misuse it, or conveniently ignore the just-as-abundant male Mary Sues.

With that in mind, however, I don't think Lana qualifies as a Mary Sue. She has some traits, such as her exotic design, the way she's "inserted" into Link and Zelda's story, and her general purity, but those aren't conclusive on their own.

More importantly, she also deconstructs the idea; she doesn't get a happy ending, fails many times, her desired love barely even knows she exists, she loses half of herself, and despite her connection to the villain she ultimately doesn't play a huge role, especially not between Link, Zelda, and Gorgonflarfadoofadorf. She's more of a catalyst than a spotlight-stealing hero, and I think that makes a pretty huge difference.

I don't see her as really being any more Sue-ish than the badass fire spearman who can turn into a dragon and makes the entire Hylian army crap their collective pants every time he shows up, and we all love him for being over-the-top badass.

I like her as a character and would like to see her return in the hypothetical sequel.

edited 27th Jan '17 7:51:43 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#3217: Jan 27th 2017 at 8:17:17 PM

It's too bad Lana and Linkle never bump into each other- Maybe she could settle for close-enough.tongue

I sure said that!
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
Customer Since: Sep, 2009
#3219: Jan 27th 2017 at 9:25:27 PM

[up][up][up],[up][up]Agreed. Was kind of disappointed that Lana didn't show up in Linkle's final story battle in Legends, though I was amused at how Impa was reacting to her during it.

I honestly think some people (not particularly here) overstate Lana's quirkiness (especially the "energetic girl" persona she seems to get in fanworks, something I don't think she shows at any point during the main story, but isn't something I'd say she wouldn't have after it was overnote ). Personally, outside of her super-blue appearance, I think she (and Cia for that matter) fits in well with the Zelda-verse without seeming too out of place, weapon animations and voice lines notwithstanding. It also helps that she's not placed into a pre-established entry of the series; she's another unique character in a unique incarnation of the franchise.

I dunno. I'm pretty fond of her (though she isn't my favorite HW OC) and would want to see her again in any sort of follow-up.note 

Speaking of OCs, I can kind of see Volga coming back somehow too, even though I think we killed him. He seems to be the game's Lu Bu expy, so I can definitely see them bringing him back somehow. And if Vaati ever showed up in a game, I can see him getting a variation of Wizzro's moveset (same with a hypothetical Saria taking Lana's Spear moveset).

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3220: Jan 27th 2017 at 9:31:59 PM

I think all five OC's will return, but they might not all be involved in the story. Some like Cia and Wizzro might just be exclusive to Adventure Mode.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#3221: Jan 27th 2017 at 10:04:58 PM

[up][up] Lana does make a lot of (what I'm going to call) "fangirl noises" in cutscenes, though. Especially in the one right before the first Temple of Ti... er, Temple of the Sacred Sword scenario in Legend Mode. She says something like "I believe in Link too!" whilst squeeing delightedly. I don't think she's quite a Fighting Clown but I can see why people got that impression.

Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#3222: Jan 28th 2017 at 12:09:26 AM

I think Volga and Wizzro could come back. It was fun playing as essentially HW's incarnation of Volvagia (with elements of the Lizalfos/Dinolfos) and a Wizzrobe respectively.

The irony with Yuga in Hyrule Warriors is that he's not even the enemy commander of the Lorule Dark Ruler map, being subordinate to Ganondorf instead.

edited 28th Jan '17 12:09:50 AM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#3223: Jan 28th 2017 at 8:16:33 PM

Magnificent success! I finally A-ranked square A1, using Link and the Great Fairy. It took me about ten tries, which is fewer than I imagined. The potion that permanently powers up your items helped a lot, too. Powered-up bombs can really clear out the stragglers.

I also unlocked the VS. Dragon skill in one of my Glorious Batons, which turned that one early Master Quest square that was giving me trouble into a total walk in the park. Now, I think I'm going to give Hyrule Warriors a break and get cracking on Twilight Princess HD.

I still wanna talk Warriors, though, because I love it.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3224: Jan 28th 2017 at 8:31:48 PM

The only thing I have left to do in that game medal-wise is clear Survival Lv. 4 in Cucco's Fury.

Giant Battle Lv. 3 took a long time but was easier than I expected.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#3225: Jan 30th 2017 at 7:49:08 AM

I mean, the problem with Mary Sue in general is that it's a "you know it when you see it" sort of thing, like pornography. And just like that, not everyone sees the same things as the term in question.

That said, rather than split hairs and debate whether or not Lana qualifies, I'm going to instead point to Tropes Are Tools - in general, while it may be difficult, it's possible for any trope to be used well. And I'd much rather argue that, if Lana is in fact a Mary Sue, she is one of the ones done well. And she's not even the first one I've seen that could say that - the Guilty Gear fandom has long embraced Sol Badguy even while admitting he's a total Marty Stu for one of the developers. Yeah, sure, her design is a bit outre for the Zelda series... but given how many of the characters have gotten Dynasty Warriors embellishments upon their entry into this series, I think it's fair to say that Lana, should she ever appear in a mainline franchise entry, would get her design tweaked such that she'd still be obviously herself even while taking on a more classically Zelda appearance.

Also, for Wizzro, I was under the impression that Sia didn't form him - he was already capable of forming himself, but he had been sealed by Gorons until Sia stormed their caves and broke the seal. Also, given that he's actually just a Merger of Souls, he (either the original or a copy) could be brought back simply by another bundle of evil souls merging inside a ring. And, as Pulse notes in @3209, they could go the reboot option. Or, since this game officially has set up an acceptable AU situation with the main games, a sequel could be just a different AU from both the first Hyrule Warriors and the main continuity. Any of those are a reasonable option for bringing Wizzro back.

Also, for Yuga, it's probably worth noting that he is Ganon's Lorule counterpart - for all intents and purposes, functionally the original. I'm not saying Ganon couldn't hijack "himself" - if anyone could, Ganon could - but there doesn't seem to be much point.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

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