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Pachylad (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#601: Sep 28th 2019 at 8:12:14 AM

I mean, yeah, that's the Watsonian explanation for why he relapsed ( there's a a fine line imo between being "realistically depressing" and just being "depressing"). But you have to consider the Doylist side, on why the writers chose to let him go through relapse - "there'll be no show if the conflict gets resolved"? I don't want things to go the other extreme of having a Surprisingly Happy Ending (that's how you get the first two seasons), there just has to be a sweet average between this and Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#602: Oct 2nd 2019 at 12:45:13 PM

Yeah, I'm glad they're ending it while it's still good, rather that contriving ways to get BoJack to backslide or relapse.

And with the second part airing in January, am I the only one who thought that the Halloween Store had better come back as a Brick Joke?

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#603: Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:49:07 PM

I'm rewatching this show to prepare for the final season. I honestly don't think there's a single season I don't like. Even on an episode-by-episode basis, there are very few clunkers. I don't think seasons one and two end on an overly saccharine note, nor do I think the show ever veers too close to Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. As someone who suffers from chronic depression (and also relates to BoJack and Diane's troubled relationship to their families), I think it's fairly realistic and pretty cathartic. It's a very "Okay, these people get it!" kinda show.

One thing that makes the show very tolerable even when it's at its darkest is that it balances serious subject matter and incredibly silly jokes and puns very well. You'd think I'd eventually get tired of animal puns but no, I'm there for them every time. There are jokes I'll remember out of the blue and start laughing all over again, like "You Googled Bo Jackson, didn't you?"

In a way, it's sad that the show is ending because it's just so damn good that I never want to stop getting new episodes, but it's also the kind of story that can't feasibly go on indefinitely, so I really hope they pull off the finale.

darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#604: Oct 3rd 2019 at 5:25:38 PM

Yeah, as someone else with depression, flocking back to the show each year is like something of a clenzing ritual. It's dark and depressing, but it's dark and depressing in a way that understands how I feel, and that kind of representation isn't something you get in most media. Where depression and its consequences is either downplayed as mopey, or the depressed character is let off and never takes responsibility.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#605: Oct 4th 2019 at 1:14:27 AM

For me by the end of the third season everyone had become so narcissistic that I was getting burned out on the drama. Bojack's self-destruction had reached its peak with his month long bender resulting in Sarah-Lynn's death, it took his character to a point that "I feel bad about it" stopped being good enough. Hollyhock and Bojack's story in the fourth season was desperately needed in response, it proved Bojack can do the right thing and Hollyhock herself is a largely innocent figure that makes us genuinely scared for her safety. As such, the fifth season has Bojack get called out on his "I feel bad about it" excuse but knowing what he is capable of with Hollyhock made me root for him to find a way to fix the problem rather than sulk over it.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#606: Oct 4th 2019 at 1:32:26 AM

The moment you realize that Todd Chavez is the least screwed up person in the main cast is the moment you really start to get the show.

And we're talking about a guy responsible for a horde of rabid clowns and a robotic sexual predator.

Edited by M84 on Oct 4th 2019 at 4:34:02 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rytex Your Friend on the Other Side from Here, There, Everywhere (Ancient one) Relationship Status: Married to the music
Your Friend on the Other Side
#607: Oct 4th 2019 at 9:10:09 AM

He's well-meaning and a bit ditzy, but he's the least screwed-up of the cast, and despite those two things you mentioned, that is still, somehow, not saying much.

The powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse.
Pachylad (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#608: Oct 4th 2019 at 9:31:49 AM

There are still imo way too many fans who don't see Princess Carolyn as at least as screwed up as Bojack, Diane or Mr Peanutbutter.

folks, her speech to herself in season 1 (about being a "heartless career girl") is not meant to be motivational, it's the breakdown of someone who's trying to repress her emotions

(side tangent: I'm personally surprised the page on Broken Ace mentions Bojack but not PC, who imo fits the description a lot more)

BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#609: Oct 4th 2019 at 1:14:43 PM

I think that's in part because we live in a culture where workaholism is seen as admirable and even actively encouraged.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#610: Oct 4th 2019 at 4:11:46 PM

I think there is also an uncomfortable topic trying to bring up the realistic issues with women who are trying to "have it all." A single career woman working 60 hour weeks will adopt a baby and then leave them with the nanny the majority of the time. It wouldn't surprise me if that becomes PC's arc this season.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#611: Oct 4th 2019 at 5:29:18 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if PC realizes she just doesn't have the time needed to raise a baby and ends up putting her up for adoption so the baby can have a family who can properly commit.

Okay, that's a bit depressing and maybe she'll find a way to balance her personal and professional life. It is the final season, so anything goes.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Oct 4th 2019 at 8:29:56 AM

ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#612: Oct 4th 2019 at 9:33:24 PM

I'd say PC is less screwed-up than BoJack in that she hasn't completely given up on happiness. She finds the energy to pursue her personal and professional goals, whereas BoJack doesn't seem to know what he really wants and self-sabotages whenever he feels like he's getting close. He's been unhappy so long, it's now all he knows, and the possibility of change seems to scare him.

I've also been thinking about him and Mr. Peanutbutter, and what they have in common. I hate to use this groaner of a metaphor but they really are two sides of the same coin. They both selfishly fail to realize how their behavior hurts the people they love, but in BoJack's case it's because he's relentlessly sad, and in Mr. Peanutbutter's, it's because he's relentlessly high on life. He's so high on life, he doesn't realize Diane is unhappy. It doesn't seem to occur to him that she could be unhappy.

That's reflected in BJ and PB's respective shows. They're the exact same thing and yet PB insists they're totally different. He doesn't want to see how he's the same as BJ.

Pachylad (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#613: Oct 4th 2019 at 10:32:30 PM

Mr. Peanutbutter's [...] relentlessly high on life. He's so high on life, he doesn't realize Diane is unhappy. It doesn't seem to occur to him that she could be unhappy.

Mr. Peanutbutter is basically a deconstructed Manic Pixie Dream Guy

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#614: Oct 5th 2019 at 1:40:57 AM

Well "most screwed up" is a different thing than the most dysfunctional. The only regular character more screwed up than Bojack would probably be Sarah-Lynn, as she seemed to see, accept and ultimately embrace her downward spiral.

With Mr. Peanutbutter I've seen people argue he is a criticism of the "I'm a nice guy" cliche, but the issue there is the cliche is people who feel entitled because they aren't overtly rude and mean to people, but end up using that as a manipulation tactic. A true nice guy is someone who actually IS charitable and makes an effort to be friendly and helpful. Mr. Peanutbutter makes an effort to be altruistic, but paradoxically is blinded by how he does it for his own selfish good feelings rather than actually recognizing the needs and feelings of the people he is trying to help. I think that is reflected in the contrast between Horsin Around and Mr. Peanutbutter's Place. Horsin Around, much like Full House, was a largely generic sitcom but had some classic comedy along with it's own poignancy at times. Mr. Peanutbutter's Place, from what little we've seen of it, doubled down on the Tastes Like Diabetes and lacked what little subtlety that even Horsin Around had. Mr. Peanutbutter is not a Flat Character, but his refusal to acknowledge pain makes him come across as rather shallow the more you got to know him.

Princess Carolyn, much like Diane, doesn't have the celebrity baggage that Bojack has to deal with and so her issues are much more mundane in contrast. She works hard because she doesn't make seven figures in royalties every year, but she's also in a business that will punish HER much harder than any of her clients (Bojack can find another agent, she will have a hard time finding another Bojack), so she can't just relax. Probably more than any other character she internalizes her stress more, making her far more aware of her own flaws.

darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#615: Oct 5th 2019 at 11:53:43 AM

I like that the show acknowledges that family sitcoms like Horsin' Around helped its viewers through Diane. It's true, Full House in its time was especially popular with people who came from abusive families because it was a welcome bit of relief.

Rytex Your Friend on the Other Side from Here, There, Everywhere (Ancient one) Relationship Status: Married to the music
Your Friend on the Other Side
#616: Oct 7th 2019 at 12:20:28 PM

[up][up] Not to mention, a lot of Princess Carolyn's worst moments are moments where she did nothing wrong, in one way or another. Her awful day in Ruthie, for instance, was everything around her going to shit or others screwing up. She seems to primarily be a messed up character because of things that happen to her, and not things she does to others.

The powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse.
darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#617: Oct 7th 2019 at 12:28:01 PM

Season 3 and 5 would like to debate that. She's made difficult promises using her clients she couldn't keep, did a lot of things behind Bojack's back, pushed away Ralph for her own selfishness, got Bojack hooked on pills after his accident shooting Philbert, and tried manipulating a pregnant girl to get her baby. She's sacrificed a lot to get her baby, now it's time to see if it was worth it. Not including selling out her first assistant.

PC is absolutely ruthless when she wants to be.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#618: Oct 9th 2019 at 11:09:54 AM

With PC's arc, what I'm really hoping for is that she and Ralph get back together, because he was really good for her, and she dumped him because he'd suggested adoption to begin with.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
FawfulCrump Since: Dec, 2010
#619: Oct 9th 2019 at 11:57:38 AM

I'm calling it now: at some point in Season 6, PC will finally come to realization that she can't do it all by herself. She'll then call someone on the phone, and the scene will play out under the assumption that she's talking to Ralph, but it'll turn out to be Judah instead.

darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#620: Oct 9th 2019 at 8:05:01 PM

The return of Judah for the last season would be fantastic. Or ya know, date both.

AHI-3000 Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#621: Oct 9th 2019 at 8:11:28 PM

Speaking of which, I wonder how many old minor characters are going to return in this final season?

Also if I'm not mistaken, Todd is the only main character whose family background we know next to nothing about. So I'm betting that we'll get to see his parents soon.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#623: Oct 11th 2019 at 10:48:02 AM

Have I mentioned that it's still somewhat amazing that even when BoJack takes himself out of the equation in Season 4, the supporting cast still find ways to screw themselves over?

It's like "oh, you thought everyone's lives would be better without the self-destructive jerk protagonist ruining their lives? Ha-ha-ha, NOPE!"

darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#624: Oct 11th 2019 at 1:19:10 PM

I mean, it's wishful thinking to assume the toxic, crush or be crushed environment of Hollywoo isn't responsible for the kind of upbringing Bojack had that further damages the rest of the cast. Diane's the closest to having some kind of stability at the moment even if it doesn't look that way.

ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#625: Oct 12th 2019 at 6:59:07 PM

Given that BoJack and Diane are so messed up largely because of their not-so-Hilariously Abusive Childhood, it's probably intentional that Todd's parents are MIA. Todd is free from the burdens that our families impose on us. He's unique among the main trio because he can be fully himself.


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