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Not Tropeworthy: Font Anachronism

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Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#51: Jul 9th 2014 at 9:35:20 AM

I originally voted to move it to Trivia, but at the time I was under the impression, for some odd reason, that all our Artistic Licence pages were Trivia. Now that I see that we don't qualify Artistic Licence as such, I'm not so sure.

Either way, the page should be kept.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#52: Jul 9th 2014 at 9:37:28 AM

There has been discussion repeatedly about moving the Artistic License - Whatever to Trivia; it's just never been acted upon.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#53: Jul 9th 2014 at 9:43:02 AM

There has been and honestly, for most of then it's a much better fit, but some people object because the errors in them are often times a lot more glaring than this page.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Lakija Since: Jul, 2012
#54: Jul 9th 2014 at 3:15:17 PM

I feel like I opened a can of worms. I feel it's necessary to make a listing of opinions right now just to see where we're at. I mean, there's a lot going on here right now. So let me collect everyone's thoughts briefly, no matter who said them and for what reason:

  • Typeface distinctions are largely unknown by general audiences; therefore it is not useful to have this page labeled as a trope.
  • Typefaces used incorrectly are trivia worthy, but don't count as a trope.
  • Counter: All tropes require some prior knowledge. Ex: Three-Month-Old Newborn requires knowledge of infant-age-distinctions.
  • Even if typefaces are subtle, their anachronistic usage is just as trope worthy as other anachronism pages.
    • Even moreso, it is just as valid as any Artistic License page as they stand now.
  • Counter: Artistic License pages might also need to be considered trivia.
  • There aren't enough examples which explain intentional usage of typefaces in the wrong era, or those examples are not clear.
  • Fonts are not a story telling device
    • Fonts are not intrinsic to a story.
  • Counter: Audiences recognize shapes of fonts and styles, although not necessarily the specific font, font-name. Therefore they help sell the setting of a story and give further context.

After collecting these, I think I should make some edits to the page and edit some of the examples no matter what happens.

edited 9th Jul '14 3:23:15 PM by Lakija

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#55: Jul 9th 2014 at 7:44:30 PM

As someone who does a lot of work in media, Fonts are important. No, most people don't notice, but most people don't notice details of costuming or set dressing either, but that doesn't mean they aren't important to the finished product.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
mongol Since: Dec, 2012
#56: Jul 9th 2014 at 7:55:42 PM

[up]That doesn't make it a trope. The fact that "most people don't notice" argues that it isn't.

edited 9th Jul '14 7:56:17 PM by mongol

Lakija Since: Jul, 2012
#57: Jul 9th 2014 at 10:33:17 PM

[up]Let me get this straight: you're arguing that any element of a work or media that is not immediately or widely noticed by audiences is not and cannot be a trope?

There are tropes that are part of a narrative, and then, on this site, there are technical tropes of media that are listed, such as those listed in Camera Tricks, and Music and Sound Effects for example. Just saying. What are your opinions on those?

I am strongly leaning toward changing the page to trivia as is, or editing it and shift it toward Artistic License - Fonts. Although I do not agree wholeheartedly with mongol on the finer points on what can and can't be a trope, I agree that I have written the examples in such a way that they read like trivia.

edited 9th Jul '14 10:49:22 PM by Lakija

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#58: Jul 9th 2014 at 11:42:00 PM

The vast majority of people don't notice most tropes if done properly. If the average person will notice or not has nothing to do with what makes a trope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
mongol Since: Dec, 2012
#59: Jul 10th 2014 at 12:16:42 AM

Well, it seems intrinsic to me that something has to make an impression on the audience somehow for it to be a trope. People might not have technical knowledge of Music and Sound Effects, but the music creates a mood. People might not know what Camera Tricks are called, but the Vertigo Effect creates a mood. I'm not convinced that fonts are something that ever make an impact for 99.99% of the audience.

That said, we seem to be agreeing more or less. Moving the trope to Trivia would solve things.

Lakija Since: Jul, 2012
#60: Jul 10th 2014 at 12:22:49 AM

[up]Take a look at Post 46. Text creates a mood as well. It is part of what sets the theme for a setting. That is why people get Oscars for Art Direction, which includes media, posters, marketing, typography and graphic design in regards to film.

However, I can see how, considering the way I set up the trope page, it isn't clear. I was too narrow in my thinking.

I think it would be more of a trope if I set it up to say something like: This is when a typeface is used to help establish the context or setting without regards to historical accuracy.

Something like that. The Davinci example, however, is just so... ridiculous. That is like, to me, the equivalent of dressing a character in Renaissance times in hop hop clothes from the 90s. But I digress.

As an aside, this is why my graphic design professors told us that learning typography and, especially, kerning would ruin our lives, because then you notice it everywhere. It's like when you get a new car, and suddenly you see that car everywhere.

edited 10th Jul '14 12:24:59 AM by Lakija

Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#61: Jul 10th 2014 at 7:10:16 AM

My suggestions:

1) In the short term, treat this like the other Artistic License pages, and keep it as a trope page.

2) If we decide to make Artistic Licence as a whole trivia, change it with the rest of the pages. This would require a separate conversation.

3) If anyone can think of a more specific font tropes in which particular types of fonts are used to invoke a setting or mood (whether or not they might be historically accurate) such as "Old West Fonts", "Medieval Fonts" etc., go ahead and make them.

It should be worth noting that changing something to a Trivia page, were we to do that, is not a demotion and should in no way be considered a smear on the quality of the page or the hard work of the person who made it.

Lakija Since: Jul, 2012
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#63: Jul 10th 2014 at 9:10:57 AM

[up][up] This was pretty much what I was posting for in this thread. You've expressed it much better. (A trivia-trope is still a trope, just different from a trope-trope, and I'm inclined to think of this page as a trivia-trope)

The only thing I'd add is perhaps switching the name to "Artistic Licence - Fonts".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#64: Jul 10th 2014 at 10:56:39 AM

Fonts make an impact on the audience in that they are part of the mood. They are part of the branding of the film. Especially in more 2D works. No, most people don't notice but most people aren't aware of a lot of what films do to set the mood. They aren't aware of how comics use various fonts to make the voices sound different in your head. They don't know why a font on a building makes them expect Asian ties. Or middle eastern. They don't know why lettering can change something from looking professional to skevy.

But that's because fonts are something consumers pick up as input but never analyse. That doesn't mean they don't have a massive inpact. It's just on a more unconscious level. Art direction is important to a work, even if you don't understand it.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#65: Jul 10th 2014 at 11:41:32 AM

Two cents: From a design perspective, typography is a Big Deal. Typographers and other graphic designers will notice if, say, a Grotesq family typeface is used in a setting earlier than about 1950. Also, typefaces are very carefully chosen (especially in advertising) for the impact they'll have on whomever consumes the work, with the assumption that either way they're probably not going to notice, that isn't the point.

This sounds like Useful Notes, maybe, but people implying that it doesn't matter are wrong.

(Also, a fine distinction that few people care about anymore, even typographers just use the word "font" so people know what they mean, but "typeface" is a set of letters etc. in a particular style, whereas "font" is a typeface and other information like point size. So Courier New is a typeface, Courier New 12-pt bold is a font. In other words, a typeface is general, an idea; and a font is specific, the actual way the idea is executed. The More You Know.)

edited 10th Jul '14 11:56:37 AM by rodneyAnonymous

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mongol Since: Dec, 2012
#66: Jul 10th 2014 at 7:02:48 PM

[up][up]"Fonts make an impact on the audience in that they are part of the mood."

I don't think there are very many reliable examples of fonts being used to evoke a mood. That's just not true. Certainly, as already noted, not one single example on the actual trope page cites an instance of a font being used to evoke a mood or to establish a sense of time and place. That just doesn't happen, and there are no examples on the trope page of that happening. What it is, is Exactly What It Says on the Tin—font anachronisms, fonts being used in period pieces that in fact had not been invented at the time the work is set in. No narrative significance at all in any listed example. Not tropeworthy.

And BTW not "artistic license", either, as that phrase implies a deliberate decision by creators, while all the examples listed are mistakes/anachronisms because most creators and most viewers do not care about fonts.

edited 10th Jul '14 7:04:10 PM by mongol

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#67: Jul 10th 2014 at 8:25:08 PM

Working in the design industry, you're really underestimating fonts. Just because you don't care about them doesn't mean they add nothing to a work.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
mongol Since: Dec, 2012
#68: Jul 10th 2014 at 9:11:25 PM

[up]They don't add anything to a work, as far as the audience is concerned. Again, look at that list of examples. Zero examples of fonts use to serve plot, reinforce themes, establish setting, or establish mood. Every example is a straight-up anachronism that does not affect the work in any substantive way. Fonts just are not storytelling tools. But they are interesting to that narrow subset of people who have studied fonts or have worked in graphic design and such. That's why this is trivia. Inside information not relevant to the work and not relevant to the audience.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#69: Jul 10th 2014 at 9:23:55 PM

Fonts do all those things and one of the things the also do is reinforce time period. It might not be something you consciously notice, but they make a big difference as anyone who has actually studied the topic knows. We know that most people don't consciously notice them. But people do unconsciously notice them.

People don't consciously notice most tropes. It doesn't make them not tropes.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
mongol Since: Dec, 2012
#70: Jul 10th 2014 at 9:39:48 PM

[up]Yes it does! Make them not tropes, that is. I contend that an element of a work that has no storytelling significance and is completely invisible to the audience is not a trope. There seems to be a fundamental disagreement between the "trope" and "trivia" sides of the argument here. Seems like a crowner is appropriate.

There still are not any examples, either here or on the trope page, of how Font Anachronism has any storytelling impact, ever. Or for that matter any examples of how use of font even when it isn't anachronistic has significance to storytelling. Or—and this is a point that seems to be getting lost—why this is not The Same But More Specific, which we are not supposed to do, since Anachronism Stew already exists.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#71: Jul 10th 2014 at 10:15:59 PM

Mongol, there are two discussion crossing each other here. The first is whether "This font is anachronistic" is a trope. No one is arguing in support of that. It's Trivia. Interesting trivia to some people, tediously boring trivia to others. But Trivia.

The trope that being discussed is "Fonts used to set or reinforce a mood or expectation in the audience, including anachronistic fonts." That is a trope, the same way color pallettes, lighting, sound levels or any other setting trope is. If you really don't think the font used has any significance, then

edited 10th Jul '14 10:21:00 PM by Madrugada

SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#72: Jul 11th 2014 at 5:20:09 AM

I think Foreign-Looking Font covers the latter just fine though. It covers geography and period, both future and past.

edited 11th Jul '14 5:22:25 AM by SomeSortOfTroper

mongol Since: Dec, 2012
#73: Jul 11th 2014 at 5:53:23 AM

"The first is whether "This font is anachronistic" is a trope. No one is arguing in support of that. It's Trivia. Interesting trivia to some people, tediously boring trivia to others. But Trivia."

Then I am cool. Move Font Anachronism to Trivia. I suggest a YKTTW for uses of fonts in fictional works, be they anachronistic or not.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#74: Jul 11th 2014 at 6:46:38 AM

Typefaces being used in the wrong portrayed era is trivia.

Typefaces being chosen to portray a certain era is a trope, whether they're accurate or not. "Looks Western to your average viewer" is just as good as "is a typeface used in the Western era" as far as it being a trope is concerned.

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Lakija Since: Jul, 2012
#75: Jul 11th 2014 at 12:50:40 PM

Is there a trope about font usage in works besides foreign looking font?

I thought there was... EDIT: Fonts covers that I guess.

edited 11th Jul '14 12:55:29 PM by Lakija

SingleProposition: FontAnachronism
19th Jul '14 2:56:31 PM

Crown Description:

Change Font Anachronism from a Trope to a Useful Note.

Move all examples to the Trivia subpage for the works in question, with a link to the Useful Note page after the Trivia entry for the example.

Total posts: 94
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