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Bexlerfu Khatun of the Azim Steppe from Mol Iloh Since: Nov, 2020
Khatun of the Azim Steppe
#17401: Feb 25th 2025 at 7:17:11 AM

It's also abundantly clear the Council doesn't really mind Saren being into shady shit. We get quite a few mentions of Spectres being downright dangerous. Palin even says that Saren's out of control. But there's no evidence that Saren had betrayed the Council, or had anything to do with the Eden Prime attack.

There was no evidence but there was the word of another Spectre. That should have been enough for the Council to have at least call Saren back for an explanation instead of the blatantly racist explanation they let the blatantly racist Spectre get away with. Something of a middle ground.

The entire quarian fleet still officially lives under martial law.

That's because they're a fleet, not a planet, and as such have to follow rules other races aren't concerned by. Koris is 100% the equivalent of a civilian leader of any other race. Just like Xen is the equivalent of a (too) high-ranking scientist, but has a military title because Quarian.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#17402: Feb 25th 2025 at 4:55:29 PM

[up] "there was the word of another Spectre" No, there wasn't? Literally the only evidence that Saren was involved with Eden Prime was that dockworker who slept on the job and engaged in smuggling. That was it. There may have been plenty of evidence of Saren being a ruthless,sadistic bastard. But the Council deliberately turned a blind eye to that sort of thing as long as it benefited them.

While Koris is the closest the games come to a reasonable civilian leader, I maintain that the way quarian society is set up does mean they're actually kinda similar to the turians in being a military government, and arguably a military society. By necessity, yes, and a little more nuanced than that. But even non-combatants are basically serving in military support roles.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#17403: Feb 25th 2025 at 4:59:05 PM

The specters as a whole are kinda shady when you think about it. They're basically secret police.

Bexlerfu Khatun of the Azim Steppe from Mol Iloh Since: Nov, 2020
Khatun of the Azim Steppe
#17404: Feb 25th 2025 at 5:07:27 PM

No, there wasn't?

There was. Guy/Gal named Shepard.

Like, Saren is not a celebrity. There's zero way that some random colonists on a remote human colony would come up with his name because they're just space racists. Anderson knows him, but he is the elite of the elite of human military forces, he's not Jim Random from Eden Prime.

The Council should definitely know that. It was stupid of them to completely dismiss Shepard's claim firsthand and not even say anything to Saren aside from "Okay have fun", even without hindsight.

But even non-combatants are basically serving in military support roles.

They all live on ships. Space is super limited. Oxygen is limited. Obviously they need strict rules of life.

But the Quarians you meet outside of the flotilla are waaaaaaaay less military-minded than the average Turian. Even Garrus, who is a superduper laid back Turian, is by far the most militaristic squadmate you can recruit aside from a couple actual, current marines like Ashley.

The Quarians are less militaristic than they are communist by force. They have to live under strict rules because they have so few resources to share, but it doesn't mean that Koris' responsibilities are mostly focused around military matters - especially as he's head of the Civilian fleet, which only gets equipped with cannons when Gerrel and Xen decide to start a war.

ITNW1989 a from Big Meat, USA Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
a
#17405: Feb 25th 2025 at 5:15:48 PM

[up] Shepard wasn’t a Spectre when they initially accuse Saren. It’s not until you do that entire runaround that ends with Tali and the recording that thenCouncil finally strips Saren of his title and they make Shepard a Spectre.

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
Bexlerfu Khatun of the Azim Steppe from Mol Iloh Since: Nov, 2020
Khatun of the Azim Steppe
#17406: Feb 25th 2025 at 5:28:43 PM

They were getting their final eval on Eden Prime. It's not like they turned from "untrustworthy" to "trustworthy" just because of a ceremony.

In any event, the Council's inaction, in any direction, is stupid at this moment. Either they believe Shepard tells the truth and they should do more to try and reign Saren in. Or they do not believe Shepard tells the truth...and they let them roam free in the Citadel despite possibly having murdered the Spectre sent to evaluate them AND accusing another one of the deed.

Talking from a purely Game Theory perspective, doing nothing gives the worst possible outcomes.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#17407: Feb 25th 2025 at 6:43:00 PM

The Council has a habit of seeking politically convenient answers that fit their existing biases.

There's an attack on Eden Prime but clearly those racist humans don't believe its our version of James Bond.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#17408: Feb 25th 2025 at 6:54:10 PM

[up] I remember someone calling the Council a "libertarian government" when the salarian councilor brushed off Udina's statement with "turians don't set up colonies in the traverse". Basically saying that humanity is on its own after they got attacked by what was seen as a robotic boogeyman at the time.

Avenger09 Since: May, 2014
#17409: Feb 25th 2025 at 7:16:56 PM

Somome on a discord I'm on felt that the whole concept of a spectre is a bit of a product of the old post-9/11 environment the first Mass Effect come out in.

I kinda see what they mean since it's all about you playing as a secret agent without full oversight, allowed to do "whatever it takes" to win the day, and presenting it as a power fantasy.

It's pretty close to being a Inquisitor from 40k, except your in a more ideal B5 type setting, instead of the grimdark one it originated from.

Edited by Avenger09 on Feb 26th 2025 at 1:40:52 PM

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#17410: Feb 25th 2025 at 7:38:06 PM

"There was. Guy/Gal named Shepard." Shepard wasn't a Spectre, and didn't actually see Saren at Eden Prime. The only witness, the only evidence at all, was the dockworker heard Nihlus say "Saren." A smuggler who was only alive because he liked to sleep on the job, so not the most reliable witness in the first place. Beyond that, is there only one Saren in the galaxy? And was he sure he heard the name Saren and not something similar? It's nowhere near enough evidence to actually take action, not against one of their top operatives who has never given them any reason to believe he would work with the geth.

"But the Quarians you meet outside of the flotilla are waaaaaaaay less military-minded than the average Turian." Sure, but my point is that the quarians still effectively live under martial law, and their leadership is military in nature, even if they do also have elected councils to advise captains. I actually also forgot about the Conclave, which I think is civilian and is primarily in charge of fleet-wide policies, but we never meet anyone from there. We only meet the Admiralty Board, who are very much military (hence the name), and who also have the authority to override the Conclave. Albeit, with plenty of restrictions that allow for checks and balances and prevent abuse.

I will concede that the presentation of the quarians doesn't treat civilian leadership as inherently inferior to military leadership. But they're the one exception. Otherwise, the franchise absolutely takes the stance that civilian leadership is inferior to military leadership, and that they should get out of the way and let the military do pretty much whatever they want to do.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#17411: Feb 25th 2025 at 8:27:51 PM

[up][up] That just makes me wonder how the Citadel and humanity in ME would react to the Imperium of Man.

They aren’t winning that one.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
djoki996 Since: Dec, 2018
#17412: Feb 26th 2025 at 1:37:27 AM

They were getting their final eval on Eden Prime. It's not like they turned from "untrustworthy" to "trustworthy" just because of a ceremony.

Sorry, what? Shepard became a spectre by bringing proof that Saren is a traitor, not the other way around.

Also, I don't remember the council ever suspecting that Shepard was the one who killed Nihlus?

Bexlerfu Khatun of the Azim Steppe from Mol Iloh Since: Nov, 2020
Khatun of the Azim Steppe
#17413: Feb 26th 2025 at 9:55:38 AM

Shepard was on a mission to be certified as a Spectre, Nihlus said so. Shepard didn't go from nobody to Spectre when he found proof on Saren, s/he was one step removed to become one.

And them being suspected of Nihlus' murder should be the logical next step if the Council does not believe Saren to be responsible. If it was an accident, they wouldn't hide it by bringing another Spectre in the story. And if Shepard lies about Saren, the only rational explanation for the Council should be that they are the guilty party.

There is no logical grey area here.

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#17414: Feb 26th 2025 at 11:05:27 AM

Shepard didn't go from nobody to Spectre when he found proof on Saren, s/he was one step removed to become one.

You know, I feel like that's something the first game doesn't really put a lot of emphasis on. Shepard is already N7 when the story starts. Literally one of the most experienced soldiers in the Alliance but you don't really get the feeling that Shepard is particularly more experienced than Ashley or Kaiden aside from being their commanding officer.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#17415: Feb 26th 2025 at 12:05:30 PM

Specters are attempts to do Grey Wardens in Space.

Which are to give unreasonable amounts of power and authority to P Cs so they can do PC things.

And even before 9/11 we have James Bond types.

Now it's James Bond and Captain Kirk.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#17416: Feb 26th 2025 at 12:19:18 PM

It's a Power Fantasy. To be fair, at least the games make it clear (and sympathetic) that there are in-Universe worries about the Spectres and you are free to share those views (especially with examples like Saren and that Asari lady).

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#17417: Feb 26th 2025 at 1:17:37 PM

[up] this.

[up][up] Mass Effect predates Dragon Age. If they are anything other than "let's give our protagonist latitude to do the things" they are both KotOR Jedi. Splitting duties with biotics in Spectre's case.

Edited by dcutter2 on Feb 26th 2025 at 9:30:18 AM

Avenger09 Since: May, 2014
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#17419: Feb 26th 2025 at 1:51:12 PM

Now now, I don't take all their stuff, I take stuff that is placed in chests or has convenient loot icons.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#17420: Feb 26th 2025 at 1:55:31 PM

Is there a lore reason none of them care enough to stop you?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#17421: Feb 26th 2025 at 3:02:05 PM

I get the feeling the Council's actual response to rogue Spectres is just to send another Spectre to solve the problem. They probably don't bother with proper administrative punishment unless it's really drastic.

Edited by SgtRicko on Feb 26th 2025 at 3:03:16 AM

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#17422: Feb 26th 2025 at 3:10:22 PM

[up]Been a while, but isn't that explicitly their solution to Saren? It's to make Shepard a SPECTRE and send them after Saren?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#17423: Feb 26th 2025 at 5:36:16 PM

I mean, Saren is pretty much a walking in-universe example of the system's failures as he's essentially a CIA agent who has enough resources to become a warlord even before the Reapers.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#17424: Feb 26th 2025 at 8:20:17 PM

[up]Does he? He's heavily reliant on the Geth, who are only in it for the Reapers. Benezia is only on his side because she's been brainwashed by the reapers and his Krogan shock troops seem to only be possible with Reaper tech/resources? He's definitely got some money/power/allies, but he turns his allies into slaves and steals their resources/allies by using Reaper mind control, without that I dunno that he's got warlord levels of power (I mean, on any serious level, it certainly seems like any five guys with a ship can go and call themselves warlords outside Council space).

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#17425: Feb 26th 2025 at 8:41:46 PM

"And them being suspected of Nihlus' murder should be the logical next step if the Council does not believe Saren to be responsible." That is not the next logical step. The next logical step is to assume the geth did it. Alternatively, they may accept the possibility of there being another turian there, they just don't see any reason to believe one of their best Spectres murdered a guy he was known to be friends with.

The Council doesn't think Shepard is lying, they think Shepard is simply incorrect, and that Shepard is drawing conclusions without sufficient evidence. Probably because Shepard was drawing conclusions based on insufficient evidence.

[up] Saren is a major investor in Binary Helix, and even before the events of the game, there was at least one occasion where he secretly hired a bunch of mercs (even if he killed them all after). So, yes, he probably does have the resources to become a warlord, if he so chose.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.

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