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amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#17376: Feb 24th 2025 at 3:38:57 AM

Regarding the Council part, I wholeheartedly agree. It's one of my personal beefs with the franchise, actually: Shep has a bad habit of expecting unconditional belief from everyone and sulking when they're justifiably called out on it.

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#17377: Feb 24th 2025 at 3:57:08 AM

Going back to the original YMMV entry, nearly a third of players choosing not to punch her does qualify as a “significant number” in my eyes.
The issue with that reasoning is that it assumes that every player who didn't punch her agrees with what she said. What it actually says is that 32% of players went down the route of calling her out non-violently, suggesting they also find her unsympathetic but just wanted to go down a different route. I didn't punch her, finding making her look like an idiot more satisfying (plus I play a goody-two-shoes), but find her as unsympathetic as you're meant to.

[up]I mean, most of the Council are still twats. Spartacus is clearly biased against you, criticising you whatever you do (kill the Rakni and you are a genocidal bastard, spare them and you've doomed the galaxy), though at least he has Character Development. The Asari is the definition of a Fair-Weather Friend (I get everyone wants to cover their arses, but do you not realise that when evil robo-squids are invading the galaxy, you need to work together). The Salarian is ok I suppose. However, I do agree that in the first game they do have a point, sans Spartacus being a dickhead.

Edited by king15 on Feb 24th 2025 at 12:05:37 PM

SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#17378: Feb 24th 2025 at 4:59:34 AM

I know it's not entirely supported by canon, but I've come to believe over the years that the Council figured out what was about to happen after first Citadel attack in ME 1 and decided that any efforts to save the entire galaxy was utterly futile, and the best action would be to quietly prepare and plan an escape - hence the Andromeda project. Never really bought their excuse that they couldn't find enough evidence on Ilos, the planet should've been a goldmine of Prothean tech and evidence of the Reapers. Guess they figured a panicking galaxy prior to the invasion would've been harder to deal with.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#17379: Feb 24th 2025 at 5:01:59 AM

After the Reapers attacked, the Council should've dropped on their knees and begged for Shep's forgivenesstongue

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#17380: Feb 24th 2025 at 5:08:00 AM

The Council probably have a point that openly believing in the Reapers could cause issues, they have no excuse for saying they don't believe when speaking privately with Shepherd.

Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#17381: Feb 24th 2025 at 5:28:51 AM

[up]x5 That's something I've noticed myself on my most recent replay. I've also noticed that humanity as a whole tends to come of as entitled and selfish in their interactions with the other species.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#17382: Feb 24th 2025 at 6:24:20 AM

I mean, Part 3 pretty much runs on Protagonist-Centered Morality.

You are tasked with uniting everyone to save Earth. Despite dozens of Homeworlds being in the exact same Situation.

Sure, the Reapers eventually transport the Citadel to Earth, making an attack necessary, but that doesn't happen until the very end.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#17383: Feb 24th 2025 at 6:56:09 AM

Earth is the first home world attacked that isn't completely defeated (poor Batarians). The simple fact is is that the armies need to work together to defeat the Reapers, and Earth is as good as anywhere.

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#17384: Feb 24th 2025 at 7:00:58 AM

Ideally, Joker's comment that he had hoped that the Council was secretly preparing for a Reaper invasion but not telling Shepard when they became an agent of Cerberus should have been true. Not much would have needed to be changed in 3's story either, there's not much the galaxy could realistically do in the timespan given but it would still have given a good indication that what preparations they made could do some work, such as Palaven's resistance.

Wabbawabbajack Margrave of the Marshes from Elbows out Since: Jun, 2013 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
Margrave of the Marshes
#17385: Feb 24th 2025 at 2:58:49 PM

I've always sympathized with the council in the beginning. Your species brings charges that one of their most prized special agents is corrupt and planning action against the council, and the only "evidence" you bring is testimony of some lame dock worker and a dream. It's pathetic. Shep was being groomed for the specres, and his first operation, a glorified fetch quest, goes horrifically wrong. It's a miracle humanity wasn't booted off the citadel.

And I'm also sympathetic to Udina. He's a jerkass but you understand where he's coming from. He's doing his best to put humanity's best foot forward and eden prime and shep drop a giant turd on his lap. Anyone in his shoes would've been mad.

Edited by Wabbawabbajack on Feb 24th 2025 at 6:00:04 AM

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#17386: Feb 24th 2025 at 3:02:55 PM

As much of a disaster as the mission was, none of this is Shepard, or even humanity's, fault. A sudden Geth attack is not on anyone's radar and even the Council would know that something very wrong happened to make the intel of the discovered beacon get leaked. And they also would be able to tell that Nylus' death is suspicious as fuck, having gotten shot in the back of the head from point blank.

Edited by Resileafs on Feb 24th 2025 at 6:03:06 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#17387: Feb 24th 2025 at 3:07:58 PM

I have to bring up that calling it a glorified fetch quest is a hell of a misnomer considering it's a Prothean Beacon that could potentially advance current technology a thousand times over.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#17388: Feb 24th 2025 at 3:30:31 PM

The start of the first game is a case of Both Sides Have a Point. Shepherd is entirely correct and has good reason to believe what they saw, while the Council is right that Shepherd does not have enough evidence. Even towards the end when the Council grounds Shepherd, you could maybe argue that they have a point (not wanting to start an unnecessary war), whilst Shepherd has seen enough to know that they need to go against the Council and leave.

It's just that as the games go on that it's clear that the Council aren't making the right decisions. Except, ironically enough, the Turian one.

Edited by king15 on Feb 24th 2025 at 11:31:07 AM

TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#17389: Feb 24th 2025 at 4:28:04 PM

Retroactively there’s also the factor that the Asari Councilor is full of shit and knows about Thessia’s own, illegally secret, beacon.

So she would’ve been incentivized to keep Shep somewhat in the game in case her experience with the Eden Prime Beacon and subsequent cowboy quests could shed light on new intel enabling the Asari to learn more from their own…

Which could also explain why even if they don’t reinstate her Spectre status in 2, they still don’t arrest Shep on sight for showing up in a ship made from stolen intelligence, branded with the logo of a known terrorist organization.

Edited by TheAirman on Feb 24th 2025 at 6:34:25 AM

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#17390: Feb 24th 2025 at 6:19:02 PM

Like I said, it's mostly people coming straight out of 2 with no prior info in 1 that clouded so many players.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#17391: Feb 24th 2025 at 7:29:51 PM

It's always so weird to me when I see people complain about the Council not doing anything about Saren. I remember even the first time I played, I was honestly annoyed that Shepard is so petulant, because yeah, they were completely correct that there wasn't enough proof. We, as the players, see Saren kill Nihlus, but the Council didn't see it. Neither did Shepard, for that matter. The Council's decision made perfect sense. But I have no choice but to be pissy about it.

The franchise has a really uncomfortable animosity towards civilian leaders in general. The military worship is obnoxious enough, but basically every civilian leader we meet or even hear about is unreasonable, obstructive, corrupt, or otherwise bad.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#17392: Feb 24th 2025 at 7:40:41 PM

[up] That's something I've noticed as well. Especially since the turian's society is a military dictatorship, yet they're often depicted as the most reasonable of the three council species. At least later on, they did come off as far more belligerent in the first game while the asari were generally more diplomatic before being depicted as more manipulative and selfish in the later games.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#17393: Feb 24th 2025 at 8:03:54 PM

[up] The salarians have civilian leaders, and they're manipulative, conniving, and generally awful. Meanwhile, the military STG seems much more reasonable. Kirrahe is, at least.

The quarians come closest to being an exception. Tali explains most ships have elected councils, but even they only advise their captains. Koris leads the civilian fleet, but he's still an Admiral, so he is still a military officer.

The asari don't really seem to have civilian leadership as such, being a direct democracy. One assumes there would be asari who are leaders in their communities and who are primarily responsible for promoting any given agenda, but we don't hear about any of them. The power still rests in the hands of the common people.

Plenty of regular civilians are great people. But civilian leaders? The franchise really seems to think things would be better off without them, just get them out of the way and let the police and especially the military "do what needs to be done."

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#17394: Feb 24th 2025 at 8:05:17 PM

I think it’s a consequence of the military protagonist POV coloring the narrative TBH.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#17395: Feb 24th 2025 at 8:50:40 PM

Ironically the supposed "prissy", "non-badass" quarian ship captain is the key to uniting geth and quarians.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#17396: Feb 25th 2025 at 2:51:59 AM

[up][up] That's absolutely a factor. But it feels like even aside from that, there's a certain level of pure contempt for politicians. Hell, we even get that with Bailey. He's a blatantly corrupt cop, roughing up suspects and taking bribes, but he's presented as sympathetic and effective, and doing what he has to do while being hampered by rules written by, presumably, civilian leadership.

I get that it's a military POV, but there still seems to be an attitude that civilians should never dare to question or constrain the military, that the military knows best what to do and how to do it and shouldn't be held the least bit accountable to civilians, whether it be politicians, bureaucrats, or journalists. The role of civilians is to provide absolute, unquestioning support for anything and everything done by the military.

It's a gross undercurrent throughout the trilogy.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Bexlerfu Khatun of the Azim Steppe from Mol Iloh Since: Nov, 2020
Khatun of the Azim Steppe
#17397: Feb 25th 2025 at 4:37:39 AM

We, as the players, see Saren kill Nihlus, but the Council didn't see it. Neither did Shepard, for that matter. The Council's decision made perfect sense. But I have no choice but to be pissy about it.

I mean, Saren killing Nihlus is the moment he shows his true colors, but the Council is supposed to have the best intel in the galaxy, and it's made abundantly clear later on that Saren was into super shady shit even by Spectre standards. They might not have executed him on the spot just because Shepard tells that, but they also could have done a bit more than saying "you have no proof therefore we do nothing".

Plenty of regular civilians are great people. But civilian leaders? The franchise really seems to think things would be better off without them, just get them out of the way and let the police and especially the military "do what needs to be done."

Well, first there's Koris to disprove that because he's explicitly pitted against a military leader and proven to be 100% in the right by the narrative, but also we are playing in the context of a full-scale invasion by massive monstrous forces who can manipulate minds. There explicitly is no diplomacy against Reapers or Collectors, so civilian skills come at a disadvantage.

Actually the one time there IS the possibility of a negotiation (Quarians v Geth), then the civilian leader is shown to be the most morally upstanding and the best of the lot.

Edited by Bexlerfu on Feb 25th 2025 at 1:41:00 PM

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#17398: Feb 25th 2025 at 4:58:24 AM

I'm thinking Ron the Death Eater applies as, despite the game operating under moral grayness fans oft assume the worst of them

The first novel kinda just makes assuming the worst text because Udina's predecessor has a whole internal monolog about how the Council fears humanity and would gladly seize on an excuse to cripple them IIRC.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#17399: Feb 25th 2025 at 5:37:17 AM

"the Council is supposed to have the best intel in the galaxy, and it's made abundantly clear later on that Saren was into super shady shit even by Spectre standards" It's also abundantly clear the Council doesn't really mind Saren being into shady shit. We get quite a few mentions of Spectres being downright dangerous. Palin even says that Saren's out of control. But there's no evidence that Saren had betrayed the Council, or had anything to do with the Eden Prime attack.

"Well, first there's Koris to disprove that because he's explicitly pitted against a military leader and proven to be 100% in the right by the narrative" Koris is still an admiral, and so still military himself. It's the closest the trilogy gets to a positive depiction of a civilian leader, but he's still not really a civilian. The entire quarian fleet still officially lives under martial law.

"There explicitly is no diplomacy against Reapers or Collectors, so civilian skills come at a disadvantage." Sure, diplomacy isn't an option, but that doesn't mean politicians have to be depicted as being useless at best, and more commonly as obstacles.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#17400: Feb 25th 2025 at 5:42:16 AM

Koris is still, in effect, a civilian leader, even if he technically isn't. Whilst I do think there are perhaps issues with how it betrays civilian leaders, I should also note that the games generally support being diplomatic and talking things out. 'Guns blazing' is rarely the best decision if the game gives you the alternative to be diplomatic.


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