Mass Effect General Discussion (spoilers)

Yeah, if they’re already on the cusp of their own Information Age and their behavior is still massively hostile like that, I can’t imagine they’d be anything but trouble once they discover and develop FTL travel.

I'd just be interested to see what their society operates like - is it just Wall Street but with no qualms about eating the other guy? How do they have a functional judiciary system? DO THEY have one?

Agriculture is the thing that allowed humans, at least, the time to devote to things like society; how does a hunter / pack species do that? Corralling a guaranteed source of food year long? Enabling them to discover organised warfare and from that societal structure?

I imagine their whole species is very VERY hierarchical, moreso than even the Turians - their mindset is probably completely alien to us - insofar as whilst other ME aliens had similar moral standards etc, the Yahg probably have Blue-and-Orange Morality.

Which brought to mind one thing that the ME games do which irks me - acting in a military fashion - such as expecting people to follow orders in tense situations, or respect rank etc are often treated as RENEGADE options. Shep runs a very lax ship and holding your own crew to account seems to be seen as not winning their loyalty; whist often letting them indulge themselves gets them in line... basically, you pander to them to get them to like you, which is contrary to ANY military method.

There's an exception with Zaeed, but again that is only accomplished by grandstanding to a point.

Yes, a leader needs to understand his people (And I think it's Ashley who weirdly suffers this the most) - she's the stereotypical "No nonsense NCO who hates Officers". But getting her to check her attitude gets a snide comment from her. But she is SPACE RACIST. It's faintly excusable in ME 2 as it's a team of misfits, not soldiers. ME 3 Vega is far too pally / annoying.

Sorry, ranting, but rarely feel like a "Commander" in the game, as people see to feel they can counter or argue when you've given an order.

Cause Military Method would be very counter to BW's writing style

(Sigh)... yeah I know, just irks me at times. Like, it's a trope that only plucky "don't play by the rules" types do well and soldiers / officers just doing their jobs are "getting in the way" of the righteous heroes.

Hackett's a nice aversion at least - professional, understanding but clearly gives orders and expects them to be followed. Same with Anderson.

I wouldn't say Shepard's squad is military in nature: They are mostly specialists collaborating with them, rather than outright subordinates.

Ashley and Kaidan in 1, and James in 3, are the ones to be stated to be subordinates. They also lack loyalty missions. Shepard chooses to be personable with them, which, seeing the situation in general, is not that implausible.

It probably doesn't help that they call them Commander Shepard. You don't want to write a military squad story, don't call your protagonist a commander.

Edited by M84 on Aug 19th 2019 at 11:32:35 PM

But thats a Fantasy/Sci-fi staple

Unlike High Fantasy setting where being an adventurer just requires you to have some combat skill and the Call to adventure

Modern settings tend to make the characters military cause They'd be the ones with all the toys.

Honestly BW seemed to have wanted to do a Rouge Trader like setup but a group of Mercs for higher wouldn't be making the same big political powerplays

They ought to have made them Agent Shepard instead. It'd make a bit more sense for someone who is specifically a black-ops operative who doesn't really fit in the official chain of command.

Edited by M84 on Aug 19th 2019 at 11:32:24 PM

BW likes to use the Best of the Best trope

but they never really write their characters as Consummate Professionals

BW's comfort zone is Ragtag bunch of eccentric Misfits whose whacky quirks bounce off each other

Hell they go through all the trouble of setting the Turians as the By the Book race... and then give you the one Turian WHO DOESN'T play by the rules!

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Aug 19th 2019 at 10:40:16 AM

Shepard ceases to be in the Alliance chain of command when he becomes the first human Specter. His commandership is honorary.

But he still get's held to account by them - he isn't punished by the Council for the Batarian system, but by the SA - because they never QUITE release him from that chain of command (Hackett, in the first game, says he can't ORDER Shepard to do anything, but by ME 2 Arrival he's pretty much using Shep as a tame Spectre)

Note how Shep is still on the Alliance's side, not really investigating that whole "Luna AI" thing and just "yessir"ing to Hackett.

I imagine he was remanded to the Alliance after blowing up a WHOLE COLONY as the Council didn't want that on them, all that high and mighty Spectre accountability aside.

Shepard's Spectre status giving them Autonomy has always been rather dubiously used.

BW uses it more as an excuse to get away with doing what they want in missions but the whole Batarian debacle is when it becomes clear that the concept is just a narrative nicety. Shepard functionally isn't an independent agent. Shepard is really just the local Hero inc that everybody orders around.

Which, when you think about it, makes some sort of sense - he's basically JUST a poster boy. A bit like Captain America in the movies, he's supposed to be a sort of political token, or nod to the humans - "look, you're at the big table!"

If Saren et al hadn't turned up, you can bet your arse that Shepard would've just been sent on some sort of tour of the Colonies doing only "nominal" spectre duties, being used by the Alliance as a propaganda tool. And the Council can then keep the humans quiet for a while longer about a seat "The Volus don't get SPECTRES! be happy with your place".

But instead they get this VERY INCONVENIENT political tool that suddenly thinks it's a REAL SPECTRE and has ideas above its station... and then people start believing it AND supporting it!

So, yeah, he becomes a nuisance for the Alliance AND the Council... who still politik right up until it all goes FUBAR.

The job description of spectres seemed to be all about lone infiltrators and investigators. Their purpose involves a degree of anonymity, being able to move quickly and act independently. If they all had small spec ops teams surrounding them that would hamper that goal. The few we meet seem to have Lone Wolf tendencies for that reason. Shepard being given command of the Normandy made him very unusual for a Spectre.

Yeah I think Specters are supposed to be like black ops agents.

So Shepard's highly publicized Specter introduction & advertisement really does indicate they weren't really serious about him doing the job cause they fucked up his anonymity from the first day.

That's partly undercut by Saren who seems to be a minor celebrity as well - as Corporate investors note his status as well.

But yeah, The Awesome Moment of Crowning for Shepard makes it seem a bit fluffy... and somewhat of a bit of duress from the Council - they were going to make him a sot of "nominal" spectre, but now they have to use him as a sort of "Ugh, fine, let's calm the Alliance down with this scrap."

They genuinely don't seem to think it'll really GO anywhere.

I assume that while the individual Specter may be known by the public, their actions cannot.

Like look Saren, then guy already had a record for brutality and other issues so giving him free reign to do whatever he wants to protect the galaxy means there's gonna be more brutality & violence. But Saren managed to keep whatever dirty he does hidden from the public so the council had no reason to take away his status.

Which I believe is part of the job requirement. "You can do whatever the fuck you want, just make sure it doesn't come back to bite us, your boss."

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 20th 2019 at 2:49:59 AM

The amount of free reign Spectres are allowed is honestly kind of fucked up. Note that two of the only other Spectres we meet who don't almost immediately die on us are villains. Shit, a full Renegade Shepard is honestly kind of a monster when you look at everything they do.

Wasn't that Salarian Specter who has chasing Kasumi in ME 3 a pretty cool dude?

Chalk it down to poor understanding of Spectres and what they should be. In 1, it's a neat way to lampshade why you get to do all the standard RPG protagonist things that you get to do without getting arrested by the Space Police (namely, you are the Space Police, and you also have a do-whatever-you-want-and-get-away-with-it badge), and narratively justify why you are being sent on any mission. I think any similarity to the whole Captain America being treated as a political token thing is likely superficial, given that ME 1 came out in like 2007-8ish, before the MCU took its first breath. If it were meant to be the case that Shepard as a Spectre is just political media circus shenanigans, at least one NPC would have said something to that effect back in 1 (where half the focus was on the political side of things).

In what way are Council Spectres any more "fucked up" than asari Justicars, or all the various black ops agencies/units that modern countries have today?

On a side note, is it ever established whether C-Sec is only for the Citadel itself, or all of Council Space?

Well, the "C" in C-Sec stands for "Citadel". They're a police/coast guard law enforcement group that function strictly within the Citadel.

Edited by ITNW1989 on Aug 20th 2019 at 10:09:20 AM

And, after all, no species is politically united AFAIK. Even if they are less divided than even earthbound humanity, they aren't a singular political faction.

Real world black ops still answer to a direct command structure and aren't given open jurisdiction to choose their missions. Spectres seem to be a combination of the Dirty Business of black ops with the notoriety of special forces, and the lawless nature of the setting gives them a little wiggle room for that premise. Maybe a slightly closer analogy would be US marshals.

I think any Specter knows they work for the Council but they are still meant to be loyal to their race represented by the Council.

That makes Shepard pretty weird for a Specter since you can play them as seriously valuing the interests of other species, not just their own.