Mass Effect General Discussion (spoilers)

Yikes. You´re right. And I had just read that thread, too.

Why would Cerberus plant false evidence to frame Shepard? That doesn't benefit them in any way, all it would accomplish is pissing off Shepard and making him less willing to work with them, while simultaneously making his job much harder on account of the Council actively working against him. TIM may be a dick, but he's not that stupid. The Council, Cerberus, and Shepard himself would all have to be passing the Idiot Ball back and forth to make this storyline even possible.

When did Cerberus leak information that Shepard was working for them to make his reputation crappy?

Shepard's not clearing his name by sending data to the Alliance, he's continuing to act as a Spectre. There is nothing in his job parameters that forbids him from working with Cerberus if their goals align with the continued security and stability of the galaxy and, as has been noted elsewhere, other Spectres have had far worse affiliations.

And, as noted by Melon, Shepard scored big on popularity. The absolute worst-case scenario is that the Council would want to review what happened over the last two years with Shepard, Shepard would explain the story to them, and they would go, "Hmm, alright, seems fair. We can't officially endorse your work with Cerberus, but your reasons for doing it make sense, and if you believe this is the best method available for accomplishing your objective, you are authorized to make that judgment on your own. Best of luck in your endeavor, Spectre."

You may recognize this as pretty much exactly what happens when you visit the Citadel.

...Okay, again, you are following the logic that game with different premise would somehow be exact same game plot wise as the current ME 2.

Secondly, TIM thinks that its great idea for Shepard walk into trap without being aware that it is a trap. For stupid reasons like "It might clue Collectors in." And I think it was hinted after Horizon mission that the info that Kaidan/Ashley was talking about was leaked by Cerberus.

Thirdly, that would be dependent on Shepard finding it out.

Also, did you actually carefully read what I write? ? When I say "minor shades of Clear My Name" I mean minor. Why does everyone always ignore adjectives I use? Heck, even word shade implies that <_< And Spectres don't answer to alliance, do they? Shepard does that even if hes not reinstated as spectre.

Come on, my English isn't THAT bad that everyone needs to continue misunderstanding my sentences D:< I didn't even say that Shepard sent data to alliance because of that. Hell, game doesn't say why you keep sending them if you do, thats up to the player.

edited 30th May '14 10:18:03 AM by SpookyMask

The Virmire Survivor at Horizon in 2 mentions that they've received reports that Shepard is working for Cerberus. That's why they get all pissed and consider it a kind of betrayal. It isn't necessarily Cerberus leaking reports though, as it might be the fact that the saviour of the Citadel who supposedly died two years ago is being noticed with two humans who advertise their Cerberus allegiance, one of whom can't shut up about how Cerberus is such a fantastic organisation.

EDIT: What he's trying to say is that the kind of game you're suggesting might be a decent game, but it would not work as a sequel to the original Mass Effect. It would require too many people to be out of character, and some to be outright stupid.

This is one example. It requires Shepard to be stupid for not detecting a plan which requires the Council to be either stupid or extremely different personalities, and which requires the Illusive Man to be extremely shortsighted, something which he most definitely is not.

edited 30th May '14 10:29:40 AM by arcanephoenix

I understand that the plot would be different, but my point is that any plot that would involve Shepard being on the run from the Alliance and Council hunting him - any plot that would make him a fugitive - would require everyone involved to be making sweet love to the Idiot Ball to work.

TIM doesn't share information when he should because he's a control freak who treats Shepard like a piece he can move. That still doesn't make him stupid enough to permanently destroy any hope of ever having a business relationship with Shepard while simultaneously making Shepard's job harder for no possible gain.

By the time the Horizon mission occurs, Shepard has done enough with Cerberus for the Virmire Survivor to have found out he's working with Cerberus just by hearing about him working with Cerberus. They didn't have to leak anything.

Spectres don't answer to the Alliance, but Shepard is also an Alliance officer in addition to being a Spectre. That's where the "Commander" in Commander Shepard comes from; it's an Alliance military rank. He didn't get fired for becoming a Spectre.

^^Hmm, I might have gotten confused since Illusive Man talks about leaking information to lure Collectors in so maybe he just... Oh wait a minute, he didn't know where Virmire survivor is because of info being surprisingly well classified, wasn't that stated? Didn't he leak info in order to lure Virmire Survivor somewhere in order to have them become target to lure collectors?

Anyway, even if Shepard is super popular, at least alliance wanted to lynch his ass if it wasn't for Hacket. Not that it matters since in current version of the game, Shepard can do everything and still be beloved.

^AGAIN. I never spoke about hunting before you prompted me to ponder how it could be done. HECK, Saren wasn't hunted. Why would Shepard get special treatment if he went rogue?

Also, technically speaking, Shepard isn't necessarily a spectre since you can refuse it(or not even get an offer). And even then after he is reinstated Council basically says "You know, you really only have spectre rights in terminus space, which doesn't follow council laws. Yay for us doing nothing important!"

And hes not exactly part of Alliance officially anymore due to being dead, so I'd say he got fired upon death by default :P

edited 30th May '14 10:30:10 AM by SpookyMask

Saren was hunted. The good commander hunted him. That was pretty much the plot of Mass Effect till Sovereign showed up.

But you're right, Shepard is technically a fugitive from the Alliance, and is reinstated very early into 3 after the invasion of Earth.

I hate these blurred lines between discussion of the series, and to what extent it can be discussed without bringing up 3's single player. I'm with Mr Drake on this one, but whatever.

EDIT: Why do I keep calling you Reaper, Mr. Drake?

edited 30th May '14 11:47:43 AM by arcanephoenix

Yeah but I'm assuming that "Alliance and council hunting Shepard" was referring to more than one or few Spectres being assigned on that

I'm still not exactly sure why it would be Idiot Plot. I mean, this. Its not like they need to kill Shepard, they might hunt him to capture him for interrogation. Which would be bad because it would waste time and let Collectors proceed their business.

Secondly, Cerberus is fricking terrorist organization. Pick someone famous real life person considered to be "hero", have him suddenly come back from dead and be working for some infamous terrorist organization and I'm sure that people would be like "He/she must have really good reason for working with those guys!

Again, his crime is of association only. Shepard hasn't been seen carrying out terrorist plots, or safeguarding Cerberus labs which he spent the last game destroying. He has simply been seen with two Cerberus agents, in a Cerberus ship, recruiting people for a mission, at least one of whom has worked with Shepard in the original Normandy, or was at the very least involved with Shepard on the Saren investigation.

Shepard is the saviour of the Citadel, remember. In some cases, they have literally saved the Council's lives. I think, and so would they, that they owe him that much, maybe not trust, but at least the benefit of the doubt.

edited 30th May '14 11:04:57 AM by arcanephoenix

If nobody is trying to apprehend Shepard, then in what way would he be a fugitive?

That dossier doesn't reflect the entirety of the Alliance. It was from one Major in the Alliance fleet, and even he didn't want to do anything more than interrogate Shepard.

It doesn't matter that Cerberus is a terrorist organization. What matters is that Shepard is a Spectre. Absolute worst case scenario, they have no reason to do anything more than ask a few questions, and Shepard has no reason to lie. He hasn't actually done anything wrong, so there is no reason for him to be a "fugitive" from anything.

The correct assumption for military personnel to make isn't, "Shepard has turned traitor on us all!" The correct assumption is, "Shepard is on assignment for a mission that's classified above my pay grade."

edited 30th May '14 11:09:41 AM by TobiasDrake

I don't really think that would pass in real life, but whatever.

In the end, talking about semantics is pointless since my point was ultimately that for "dark middle chapter" story(or whatever ME 2 was supposed to be)... I wasn't really that dark. I mean, sure it was darker than ME 1, but even when not counting ME 3's war story darkness... Yeah, ME 2 wasn't that dark. Even though majority of your squad are criminals and killers. Since none of them are really evil and all of Cerberus crew members are handpicked to be nice people. So ultimately Enemy Mine mainly extends to Illusive Man. And there are no repercussions for working with them since Anderson and Hacket don't mind because Shepard is Jesus.

And no, Kaidan/Ashley don't count, they refuse to join Shepard for rather stupid reasons(Well, it wouldn't be that stupid... If not the fact that they are literally only ones of your friends who don't trust you.) and then they still send apology email.

Pretty much the point wasn't that Shepard being fugitive would have made more sense(I'm not sure if I said that or if people misunderstood me again) plot wise, I meant that it would have made story darker and made it more heartwarming that your friends believe you anyway even though "everyone else" is against you.

edited 30th May '14 11:13:26 AM by SpookyMask

Plus, as a Spectre, he's completely within his rights to cavort around with whoever he wants to ensure galactic peace and stability. Sounds paradoxical, I know, but Saren and Vasir had pretty shady connections too.

EDIT: Waiter minute, I think I've understood what SpookyMask is trying to say - he (she?) is trying to postulate a Mass Effect 2 that was darker than the ME2 that we got, perhaps a completely different plot. How ''would'' that work?

Oh, and Jack and Zaeed are pretty nasty pieces or work, and Miranda is rather overtly 'Gimme a C!'. Jacob is okay, Garrus reached his apotheosis in Omega and is trying to find out how he's going to live with such ruthlessness, Mordin, Samara and Thane are rather dangerously amoral and Grunt is... Grunt. Pretty complex characters, if you ask me.

edited 30th May '14 11:22:27 AM by arcanephoenix

...Also, since you guys keep bringing it up... Shepard wasn't spectre again before he got reinstituted. And even then, he is only technically a spectre afterwards.(his rights only exists as long he works in space where his rights don't exist) And even then, he might not be spectre depending on choices. Also, darn semantics, I keep wanting to argue with ones you keep pointing out D:< Also, I dunno, Omega seems to have plenty of criminals that aren't being hunted down. Does fugitive by default mean he has to be hunted down?

And even then, even though Hacket apparently is only darn Admiral in entire alliance despite Hacket saying that people have wanted excuse to lynch Shepard anyway, couldn't there be someone else who could authorize Shepard being captured? I mean, really, only ONE person in alliance suggested that? Really?

A fugitive is defined by someone who is fleeing from justice. If justice isn't chasing him, then he isn't fleeing.

As for the Alliance, it's a military organization. It's not uncommon for there to be operations that you don't get to know about because it's above your pay grade. An officer going off-grid for two years doesn't mean traitor, it means black op. If you don't know about it, that's because it's not your assignment. Military is big on the principle of Need-to-Know; you don't know because your superior officer or his superior officer feels that you don't need to.

That's why Hackett was able to reject the request with a simple, "Request denied," and no further information given. Shepard's not the first soldier to go dark on a secret assignment, and he won't be the last.

edited 30th May '14 11:24:55 AM by TobiasDrake

But it is a sign as to how much Hackett trusts Shepard that he covers his ass when it wasn't, in fact, an Alliance black op. Couldn't Hackett get in trouble?

Ohhhh, yes. If Shepard was, in fact, a mole or a rogue officer who betrayed the Alliance for Cerberus, Hackett could get in deep shit for covering for him. It makes him an accomplice to treason.

Best case scenario, his ass gets court-martialed into a Dishonorable Discharge for aiding the traitor.

edited 30th May '14 11:31:56 AM by TobiasDrake

Damn.

Mass Effect is a really idealistic universe. People are all good, it's just circumstances that make them do bad things. Saren and TIM, among others, all did wrong things for the right reasons, thinking that given their circumstances, this was the best they could do.

<_< I'm still pretty sure that spectre authority doesn't allow them to go under the radar for two years without telling Council about it, especially since Shepard stopped being spectre after he died, but whatever. Lets' not talk about semantics anymore.

And yes, Zaeed and Jack are (in ME 2 at least :P) pretty nasty, but... They never get in the way of the work. Besides Zaeed in loyalty mission. Heck, Wrex shooting Fist is only time during entire series when party members do something you don't order them to do by being present in the party. Jack and Zaeed don't really do evil crap while with Shepard so while they have nasty past... Yeaah.

I'd file it under that "idealistic universe" thing you just said :P ME 2 is meant to be the dark whatever story, but it kinda fails in term of how dark it is. Thats why I suggested Shepard not getting help from Council/Alliance because they would rather capture him for disappearing for two years. Anderson and Hacket could still believe in Shepard, but its not like they should have authority over whole alliance. When everyone besides the evil organization (and your buddies) is against you, that does create atmosphere of dark and desperation. Would make Virmire survivor's reaction less silly(Since if alliance has branded Shepard as traitor, they would obviously be distrusting that conflicts with their previous faith in Shepard. So they wouldn't try to take him/her in, but wouldn't join him/her either.) while making it more heartwarming that your other friends believe in you despite what others say.

I'm not thinking about it from logical perspective of whether it is contrived or not(I still believe it would make sense, but whatever, not wanting to argue that), I just think its one way to make ME 2 actually dark. Plus I'm always into the situation were heroes have it really sucky and their friends still believe in them :P Might explain why I secretly like hurt and comfor- *cough* Anyway, I just feel like Bioware didn't go far enough in ME 2 to make player feel that things really are bad.

Good to see a new Mass Effect thread.

Sad to see the third game (which I'm still trying to beat, but mostly because I keep doing other stuff) can't be discussed.

So....I guess it was kinda pointless for me to come here.

So long folks.

Hey, stick around, man, we four are pretty good guys. Plus, because of the third game taboo, we reeeeallly dissect the other two. Its quite fun, actually.

EDIT: My apologies, I didn't remember that there have been more, An STH among them.

edited 30th May '14 12:35:12 PM by arcanephoenix

And hey, maybe we can eventually talk about ME 3 :P At least when ME 4 comes out.

And we are talking currently about ME 2 anyway. Unless you want to talk about hoppers.

Jesus, it really is the 4 of us? Makes sense. A few Mass Effect regulars were banned a long time ago.

Really?

What happened in that thread? Twas before my time.

Apparently people were reaaaaaaaaally bitter about ME 3

That or its just a coincidence

I'm still here. Watching. Waiting.