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VeryMelon SUPER SOMETHING ELSE from United States Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
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May 29th 2014 at 8:34:50 AM

Obliviously, but the contention is how sloppy it ends up being. The only way it doesn't look bad is if you only played Mass Effect 2 first.

Mr. McMahon reacts to Marvel's Phase 3 line-up
AnSTH Lawful Evil Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
May 29th 2014 at 8:40:13 AM

[up][up] Nah. The galaxy is supposed to be a big place. One of the big points of 3 was that you couldn't save everyone. But in 2 we're supposed to care about these frontier colonies that get picked off beyond the borders of Alliance space, which they knew going in would be more dangerous due to the lack of support from the navy?

Not that that means much. Bioware could have written it any way they wanted and justified it. The rails we get stuck on just irk a bit more for some players.

edited 29th May '14 8:40:51 AM by AnSTH

But that's a story for another time.
TobiasDrake Always watching, never seen from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Always watching, never seen
May 29th 2014 at 8:41:49 AM

A Shepard who never got involved in the plot is a Shepard for whom Mass Effect 2 and 3 never happened. It's kind of like how you can't import you save file to 3 if you died in 2; if you don't get involved in the Collectors story, then you're not involved in the Collectors story and don't get to find out what happened.

There is an option for not playing the game: turning the console off. I'm not sure what you want here. A Nonstandard Game Over where you get a blurb explaining how Shepard never got involved and the Collectors prevailed and then the Reapers killed everyone?

edited 29th May '14 8:43:02 AM by TobiasDrake

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold, dispassionate logic that which can be equally or better explained by emotional outburst.
arcanephoenix Resident Bollywood Nerd from Bombay(BOMBAY!), India Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Resident Bollywood Nerd
May 29th 2014 at 8:42:26 AM

Perhaps. But it still works.

Shepard has seen the extent of the Reapers, their power, their plans. S/He's one of the few people who understands the sheer magnitude of the problem. Cerberus helps him/her fight that - no matter how duplicitously, no matter with what intention - Shepard has no choice, because s/he actually doesn't care about a terrorist organisation if galactic civilisation is at stake.

EDIT: The reason that sacrifice was necessary in 3 is 'ruthless calculus', as Garrus put so eloquently. Why would Shepard leave people to die when s/he could save them? It's horrifyingly out of character.

edited 29th May '14 8:48:09 AM by arcanephoenix

"Don't do stupid shit" seems to be an ideology we can all rally behind. - East N
SpookyMask Insert title from Corner in round room Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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May 29th 2014 at 8:44:21 AM

@Tobias: Obvious answer to that is to write the game so that Shepard can get help from alliance or council :P Because the only option being to join evil organization(who is possible your archnemesis for ruining your life) is more contrived.

Or like I said, alternatively make the organization be less obviously evil. Hell, it could have even been Cerberus with false name. Just make it increasingly clear when you play through the game that organization you are now working with are evil as hell so you can say "Screw you" in ending. Hell, when you already know that Cerberus is evil, why would you help them in sidequest? I never did choices in sidequest which involved giving Cerberus data over giving their data to alliance. Just have council refuse to work with you due to thinking you are rogue for having mysteriously disappeared two years ago(since seriously, nobody buys the "I died, and got rebuilt" excuse at first)

@Very: I guess that makes sense, but couldn't they just have changed hopper pattern? Or alternatively make them cover breach enemies who are less lethal and fast to take down?

edited 29th May '14 8:48:29 AM by SpookyMask

Time to change the style, for now
VeryMelon SUPER SOMETHING ELSE from United States Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
May 29th 2014 at 8:50:53 AM

One of the things Geth Hoppers did was stick to vertical walls and ceilings while they shoot. If they could still do that, they'd probably be harder to program for the rooms you do fight Geth in that most, so I guess they were dropped to make things easier on themselves.

Mr. McMahon reacts to Marvel's Phase 3 line-up
SpookyMask Insert title from Corner in round room Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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May 29th 2014 at 8:51:24 AM

There is one more thing now that I think about it: Why DIDN'T Shepard become fugitive in second game(besides Bioware apparently lacking guts to go that far? They DID set up the ME 2 as the dark middle chapter story, but they didn't go enough dark with it)? I mean, even if Hacket and Anderson protects Shepard, they can't do possible do everything to protect him/her. If Shepard was actually considered to be rogue spectre/fugitive, it'd make sense why he has to work with Cerberus.

I don't actually mean this story consistency wise, I mean it from drama perspective. Shepard being fugitive would have made a lot of events in the story more meaningful. Virmire survivor refusing to work with them, Tali/Garrus coming back, Anderson and Hacket giving support, working with Cerberus, etc. Kinda like how crew staying with Shepard when they stole the ship was heartwarming in the first game.

^Hmm =/ Still sucks. They could have at least edited pattern and make them like geth version of fenris or something. Or I dunno, the first mission DID have flying drones, so maybe they could have just jumped out of nowhere to walls and stay in designated spots(or jumping only to certain ones) until you shot them instead of jumping randomly like crazy.

edited 29th May '14 8:56:03 AM by SpookyMask

Time to change the style, for now
TobiasDrake Always watching, never seen from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Always watching, never seen
May 29th 2014 at 8:57:27 AM

Both letting the player shirk the Deal with the Devil and making the Devil a pretty decent guy defeats the entire purpose of writing a story about the hero being forced to make a Deal with the Devil.

You're supposed to know that Cerberus is an awful organization that you would only ever work with as a last resort, which means they have to be the only option for them to be an option. There's a reason doing anything that helps Cerberus is the Renegade option throughout the game, because Renegade Shepard is a bastard who does terrible things for lulz. There's a reason characters consistently tell Shepard, "I'm not here for Cerberus, I'm here for you, because Cerberus can take a flying f*ck off a bridge." There's a reason only one character in the entire Normandy crew actually sings the praises of Cerberus and tries to say they're not so bad, and her introduction to the game is murdering a man in cold blood based off a suspicion, so we know right off the bat that Cerberus's Cheerleader is a pretty awful human being too. There's a reason you are constantly given conversation options to go, "Stop acting like I'm part of Cerberus, Cerberus folks, because if I had it my way, I would burn your entire hierarchy to the ground and piss on your graves," and those options are considered Paragon Responses.

At no point is Cerberus presented as good guys. The game is a playable Enemy Mine.

edited 29th May '14 8:59:00 AM by TobiasDrake

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold, dispassionate logic that which can be equally or better explained by emotional outburst.
SpookyMask Insert title from Corner in round room Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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May 29th 2014 at 8:59:47 AM

You misunderstood my latter post <_< I wasn't talking about theoretical second game that doesn't involve Cerberus, I meant why the version of ME 2 that we got where Shepard worked with Cerberus didn't have Shepard become fugitive in eyes of alliance and council?

Also, you didn't really response to my comment about scenario being contrived. I mean, yes, its Enemy Mine game, dark middle chapter etc. So why didn't they make Shepard fugitive? Thats stronger reason to work with Cerberus than "Alliance and Council won't help because you are working with Cerberus". Its kinda circular that way :P The reason why you have to work with Cerberus is ultimately rather contrived and exists because writers didn't come up with better reason for it. And they never allow you to say "You bastards killed my Squad in Akuze!" for some reason.

[nja]Dang it, don't edit the edit out while I'm posting response to edit :p This makes things more confusing!

edited 29th May '14 9:03:49 AM by SpookyMask

Time to change the style, for now
AnSTH Lawful Evil Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
May 29th 2014 at 9:01:14 AM

I'm not sure what you want here.
Want? Nothing. This is a forum. I'm talking.grin

But that's a story for another time.
arcanephoenix Resident Bollywood Nerd from Bombay(BOMBAY!), India Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Resident Bollywood Nerd
May 29th 2014 at 9:02:02 AM

[nja][up][up][up]She does get better, though. Plus, she gets more human as the game goes on, and even some of her points are hard to refute, even if she might be misinformed about them.

[up][up] Because Shepard hasn't actually done anything criminal beyond association with Cerberus, and Spectres like Saren and Tela Vasir had far worse associations. Plus, Cerberus actually gives you intel on the missing colonies and such, and TIM also pays a lot of your squadmates a LOT. Plus, there's the whole 'brought you back to life and gave you the new Normandy' thing. Also, the Alliance doesn't particularly like Shep even before the whole Cerberus thing.

EDIT: Apologies. Missed an arrow.

edited 29th May '14 9:08:40 AM by arcanephoenix

"Don't do stupid shit" seems to be an ideology we can all rally behind. - East N
SpookyMask Insert title from Corner in round room Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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May 29th 2014 at 9:03:10 AM

^? Huh? .-.

Also, he disappeared for two years. Hell, Cerberus already leaked info on purpose that he is working with them. So why didn't writer made it so that Cerberus provided evidence that Shepard had been working with them for two years already?

edited 29th May '14 9:05:38 AM by SpookyMask

Time to change the style, for now
TobiasDrake Always watching, never seen from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Always watching, never seen
May 29th 2014 at 9:05:16 AM

I think making Shepard a fugitive would have even more problems, though, given his status as a War Hero. Shepard and his crew are responsible for saving the Citadel from the threat of Sovereign. The Council has enough problems with looking unreasonable, they don't need to add, "Put out a manhunt for the man who saved the galaxy for no good reason!" to their list of offenses.

Telling Shepard, "We aren't going to stop you from doing this, but understand that it cannot be officially sanctioned," makes more sense given the history of both the character and his relationship to the Council, and they still get crap for that. If they actively tried to apprehend and/or neutralize Shepard, there would be no doubt in anyone's minds that they're all indoctrinated Reaper slaves.

edited 29th May '14 9:06:41 AM by TobiasDrake

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold, dispassionate logic that which can be equally or better explained by emotional outburst.
arcanephoenix Resident Bollywood Nerd from Bombay(BOMBAY!), India Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Resident Bollywood Nerd
May 29th 2014 at 9:10:56 AM

Shepard was pretty disgraced though, if I'm not wrong, in the two years between 1 and 2, mainly because nobody wanted to take the Reapers seriously. The Reapers only become a galactic reality after the invasion of Earth, nobody really cares about them before - it is a pretty difficult concept to grasp.

edited 29th May '14 9:13:22 AM by arcanephoenix

"Don't do stupid shit" seems to be an ideology we can all rally behind. - East N
SpookyMask Insert title from Corner in round room Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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May 29th 2014 at 9:13:52 AM

No need (necessarily) to make public wanted poster. Just have black ops hunt him/her if you want to go that far :P Even if council doesn't publically call him traitor, they would probably want to get rid of "rogue spectre" behind the scenes while whitewashing the news for sake of morale and saying rumors of Shepard is alive is untrue and he really did die two years ago and that someone is just faking to be Shepard(hell, Aria checks if you really are Shepard, maybe some people did attempt to fake being him after Shepard died). Or if you want to avoid fighting good guys, don't force Shepard to go to Citadel or council space. Omega already works as shop hub, just expand it little. No need to involve hunting at all. Hell, even if they did declare public manhunt, some people in ME 2 are already pissed off that he disappeared for two years before coming back suddenly.

Again, if Cerberus had provided false evidence of Shepard having faked his death and gone to work with them for two years(since AGAIN. Nobody except your squadmates believe that you actually died. Not at first. They assume that you faked your death at first.), I'm pretty sure even Council would be pissed off to do that. Hell, everyone would be pissed off enough to do that. Plus its more convincing "Council dislikes Shepard" moment than the "Ah yes, Reapers, we have dismissed that"(as hilarious as that was).

Besides not really sure how that is more contrived than "Yeah, we don't believe in reapers anymore. Because we couldn't by bad luck get enough sovereign pieces to piece together that it was a reaper. Bad luck! We can't believe in reapers because if we did, we would help you and you wouldn't have to work with Cerberus!" Are you saying that Shepard being fugitive wouldn't have earner extra "Dark chapter of the story!" points? Plus ME 3 he is arrested anyway even if you don't do arrival. So would it really be that out of the place?

^Yeah, Joker and Jacob and engineer duo imply that after Shepard died, Alliance was quick to dismiss everything he/she worked for and other nasty stuff(like grounding Joker). Thats why engineer duo quit after all, they couldn't stand Alliance doing that to Shepard.

edited 29th May '14 9:24:51 AM by SpookyMask

Time to change the style, for now
SpookyMask Insert title from Corner in round room Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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May 30th 2014 at 3:44:18 AM

Umm, anyway, why do Collectors have only one ship anyway?

Never understood in story reason for it .-.

Time to change the style, for now
TobiasDrake Always watching, never seen from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Always watching, never seen
May 30th 2014 at 7:15:07 AM

Have black ops hunting Shepard for what? Seriously, what could possibly justify that? And what would it contribute to the story?

As long as we're making the Council one-dimensionally Stupid Evil, we might as well have them burn the Citadel, blow up the asari homeworld, and release a zombie plague on Earth while we're at it.

The Council had plenty of reason to deny the existence of Reapers, because they were in denial. They desperately wanted Space Cthulhu to not actually be a thing. It's willful ignorance for the sake of not having to acknowledge a terrible and unpleasant truth.

But Reapers or no Reapers, Shepard is a war hero who saved the Citadel from a tremendous geth assault with a massive capitol ship that could have destroyed the stability of the galaxy as we know it. Even if they refuse to acknowledge Reapers, trying to assassinate Shepard is mindlessly, stupidly, pointlessly evil with no justification whatsoever.

edited 30th May '14 7:17:41 AM by TobiasDrake

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold, dispassionate logic that which can be equally or better explained by emotional outburst.
SpookyMask Insert title from Corner in round room Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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May 30th 2014 at 7:20:30 AM

<_< Are you ignoring what I'm saying for point of making an argument? That is only thing worth responding to?

First.... I already said why, false evidence about faking death in order to work for Cerberus. You know, a fricking terrorist organization. SECONDLY... The manhunt is the thing that bothers you??

I mean... You are the one who brought up council putting manhunt in first place. That was my reply to that :P I didn't even think about manhunts until you said manhunt. My idea was that "Okay, if Shepard is fugitive, obviously he wouldn't go to Citadel at least without bribing or smuggling himself there. Outlaws can't just walk through customs!" and have that be the reason why alliance and council won't help him. You are the one who brought in the idea that him being fugitive means he has to be hunted down by other than bounty hunters.

Edit to what you added: Saren was considered to be hero until he went rogue. Also, denial is stupid excuse. Because seriously, everyone thought council being in denial was just stupid and thats why everyone was hoping before ME 3 was released that council was behind the scenes working on effort agaisnt reapers.

Anyway, since apparently this subject is something that can't be talked about sensibly... Another cool thing about hopper was their unique organic look and how according to codex it was apparently new development to geth hinting that as they advance they create more organic platforms in appearance. Which is again discarded along with all hoppers in future game... I think more organic looking (but still synthetic of course) geth would have been cool creepy.

edited 30th May '14 7:23:34 AM by SpookyMask

Time to change the style, for now
TobiasDrake Always watching, never seen from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Always watching, never seen
May 30th 2014 at 7:35:52 AM

The premise of Shepard becoming a fugitive is what bothers me, which is where the manhunt came in. The Council has no reason to make Shepard a fugitive. That would accomplish nothing and only make them look mind-numbingly evil. What, exactly, does Shepard have to be a fugitive from, when a) he's a war hero, and b) he's a Spectre, which gives him full license to go off the grid, work with terrorists, do whatever he needs to do in order to secure the safety of the galaxy?

Working with Cerberus isn't enough to make him a fugitive, the Council would have to revoke his Spectre status, and they have no justifiable reason to do that. Declaring a Spectre to be rogue is a hard and arduous process, as the first game well-established; they would need concrete evidence that Shepard is working against the stability and safety of the Council. Unless they have him on-tape going, "Yes, soon our plans will be complete, and we will destroy the Citadel and burn all the races of the universe!" or something, they're not going to do it.

As for denial, "everyone thought it was dumb" doesn't make it so. I prefer to form my own opinions, not just listen to whatever others are parroting. Desperately trying to deny the unspeakable truth of the cosmic horror is a classic element of Lovecraftian horror, and the Reapers are pretty transparently Space Cthulhu. The Council didn't want to believe the Reapers exist because, "Shepard bought into Saren's lies a bit too well," is a more pleasant alternative than, "Death and destruction is coming for us all and it cannot be stopped. Kill yourselves now and spare yourself the horror of watching everything you love be destroyed by unstoppable creatures of mass destruction! All is lost! The end is nigh!"

If the Reapers are real, then everyone is going to die and there is nothing they can do about it. Life itself loses all meaning, because it can be taken in an instant by unspeakable horrors from beyond the edge of the galaxy that can never be defeated and will never stop coming. Everything that has ever been built by all the races of the universe can be snuffed out, and nobody can stop it. All of galactic history has been for nothing, and a thousand years from now, no one will even remember that any of this existed.

All it takes for that not to be true is for Shepard to be wrong.

edited 30th May '14 7:38:43 AM by TobiasDrake

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold, dispassionate logic that which can be equally or better explained by emotional outburst.
SpookyMask Insert title from Corner in round room Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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May 30th 2014 at 7:45:00 AM

Saren faking reapers is more convoluted though than Reapers just being real. I mean, how exactly you cheat robots? Its stupid even if it sort of makes sense. And even then, the ME 3 would have been a lot easier if they had prepared for Reapers.

Anyway, I'm confusing why you keep assuming that in hypotethical second game where Shepard would have been fugitive that game would be otherwise 100% identical .-. Of course there would need to be some reason for it. Even though now that you mention those reasons against the idea, I'm pretty sure that spectres' take missions from council so they aren't supposed to disappear and go undercover on their own. I say it for third time:

False evidence. NOT false evidence of Shepard faking his death. NOT false evidence of Shepard having been for two years working with Cerberus. False evidence of Shepard having bad shit while working with Cerberus that would make him traitor and rogue. Cerberus already leaked info to alliance that Shepard is working for them in order to make Shepard's reputation crappier. And no need to have Shepard learn it early that Cerberus is source of that false information no matter how obvious it is since who else could have made that fake information.

Game as it is already has minor shades of "Clear my name" in that you can send data to Alliance and get "Glad to see that you still have Alliance's interests in heart despite working with Cerberus" emails. In that scenario Paragon Shepard would try to clear his name while Renegade would roll with the crappier reputation for intimidation value. And like I said, it'd would make some scenes more meaningful, like Virmire survivor not trusting you for reasons you didn't even have choice in.

edited 30th May '14 7:50:55 AM by SpookyMask

Time to change the style, for now
SpookyMask Insert title from Corner in round room Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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May 30th 2014 at 7:59:54 AM

Also, another thing: Why would in that scenario Council/Alliance be Stupid Evil if they believe that Shepard has turned into Saren 2.0?

Also, Alliance/Council wouldn't be fine with Shepard going off the grid without permission for two years. Hell, Lair of the shadow broker has message where some alliance intelligence guy wanted to start manhunt for Shepard but was rejected by Hacket. So clearly even in current ME 2 some people wanted to do that to Shepard. I don't remember if there were mentions of Council wanting to do that though besides Udina being a dick and replacement council being rather sour.

edited 30th May '14 8:01:47 AM by SpookyMask

Time to change the style, for now
VeryMelon SUPER SOMETHING ELSE from United States Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
May 30th 2014 at 8:29:54 AM

It really ins't, but I think Tobias said that because Shepard scored big on popularity within Council space. That's not even getting into the fact that Shepard picked someone to join the Council if Shepard saved them.

Mr. McMahon reacts to Marvel's Phase 3 line-up
SpookyMask Insert title from Corner in round room Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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May 30th 2014 at 9:25:11 AM

Hmm, dunno, by ME 2 his reputation is already partially ruined. Besides, like I said, Saren 2.0. Council didn't send fleet after Saren nor did even reveal information public about this involvement with Geth(it got somehow leaked to ms. annoying reporter though). I don't see why they would in this scenario start a manhunt, at most have someone arrest him if hes in council space or have some other spectre go take care of him. If he would indeed still be "too popular"(assuming that Cerberus wouldn't have kept up smear job for time during two years), they don't exactly need to make it public knowledge. I mean, if info related to Saren was classified, no reason for Shepard's mysterious return as rogue wouldn't be classified, besides some mysterious nebulous evil entity leaking it to press.

And isn't this how most movies where someone is framed and has to clear their name works? :P No matter how popular they were before, majority of people really believe that the person did it because of evidence while minority don't believe it?

Hell, even ignoring spectres and whats not, Alliance clearly did want to arrest Shepard(since they arrest him anyway even without Arrival being completed) so... Yeah, wouldn't be too out of the place. It just means Shepard should keep low profile in Citadel space to avoid getting arrested for time wasting interrogation.

edited 30th May '14 9:26:32 AM by SpookyMask

Time to change the style, for now
Aszur Not quite wrong, not quite right from Pagliacci's show Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Not quite wrong, not quite right
May 30th 2014 at 9:35:09 AM

Say. What do you guys think Javik was doing when Liara approached him after the events in Thessia?

Was he being sincere, or just a jerk?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes.
VeryMelon SUPER SOMETHING ELSE from United States Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
May 30th 2014 at 9:37:36 AM

No talking about the Mass Effect 3 Single-player.

Mr. McMahon reacts to Marvel's Phase 3 line-up

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