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Self-Demonstrating Character Pages cleanup

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Important note:

  • This thread is for discussing individual self-demonstrating character pages. However, it was determined that consensus regarding whether such pages are or aren't necessary or beneficial to the wiki needs to be determined before discussing individual pages, as stated in this mod statement, so this thread has been locked in the meantime. Please join the policy discussion in this thread on the Wiki Talk forum.

    Original post 
So apparently the self-demonstrating page I created for Charizard was deleted. I could somehow sense that the character articles were getting out of hand, but since nobody really had a problem with it I just decided to run with it.

However, this deletion hints that rules should be in place for self-demonstrating character pages, so does anyone have suggestions for what the rules should be?

I have a few:

  • Deadpool has one, no questions asked (even if everyone else's are deleted). Especially Charizard's.
  • The character must be able to speak English (or other intelligible languages), except for Rule of Funny (like with Groot's page). Charizard violated this rule. Kyoko's page is fine since she'd be speaking Japanese, for example, which is simply "translated" for reader convenience (largely based on the official subtitles).
  • There can be a forum thread where people can post their drafts and suggestions for character pages, similar to the Fanon Pokédex. In this case, new character pages can't be started without being reviewed in the thread. This is to avoid having the wiki oversaturated with pages for characters with boring personalities (like Shu Ouma) or ones with strange speech patterns that aren't for Rule of Funny purposes like Charizard. I can just imagine the chaos that would have ensued if other tropers had decided to follow my lead and create Pokémon Speak pages for about 30 other species of Pokémon.

Any thoughts?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 4th 2024 at 11:22:35 AM

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#701: Feb 7th 2022 at 8:58:59 PM

...Uh, "No distinct voice" isn't referring to the literal voice of the characters/actors. It means that the way the character talks isn't distinctive enough to justify a self-demonstrating page.

AlicornGaia Fishy from Mega Man Zero Earth Since: Sep, 2019 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Fishy
#702: Feb 7th 2022 at 9:43:14 PM

Well you could argue for superman and ryu, batman is usually with a gruff tough tone. How is that not distinct?

"Come on Zero. Fight me. It feels so good :3"
bwburke94 I am mad scientist! It's so cool! from 1.048596% (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
I am mad scientist! It's so cool!
#703: Feb 7th 2022 at 9:48:18 PM

Batman is distinct, but Superman (both as Kal-El and as Clark) speaks in a rather generic voice.

2025: the year it all ends?
AlicornGaia Fishy from Mega Man Zero Earth Since: Sep, 2019 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Fishy
#704: Feb 8th 2022 at 1:08:24 AM

Anyway can someone check if Po from Kung Fu Panda is allowed his own self-demonstrating page? I would but I’m not familiar with his speech pattern .

Also, I can imagine Eobard Thawne’s page to be extremely petty and sadistic. Agreeable?

"Come on Zero. Fight me. It feels so good :3"
easytorememberhandle Since: Jun, 2011
#705: Feb 8th 2022 at 8:14:59 AM

The "distinct voice" aspect, I believe, means consistent, recognizable speech patterns. And a lot of well-known characters simply don't have those. In fact, the more popular and long-lived a character is, the less likely they are to have them.

Take Rorschach from Watchmen. A bit of supplemental material aside, the majority of his existence is 12 issues of a single series written by one man. He has a very distinct, identifiable way of speaking that most writers could emulate.

Now take Batman on the other hand. He's over 80 years old and has been interpreted by hundreds of writers and dozens of actors. The idea that there is a "definitive" version of Batman hasn't existed in decades. The character has been redefined so much that there's almost no "rules" for the character anymore. Even stuff like "son of philanthropists" and "refuses to kill" aren't ironclad guarantees anymore. And with that lack of consistency comes a lack of voice.

Frank Miller's Batman, Grant Morrison's Batman and James Tyrone's Batman all have their own way of speaking and variants in personality. In live-action portrayals we run the gamut from Christian Bale to Adam West. (Which proves even the "gruffness" cited above is far from mandatory - to a whole generation, West was Batman, even if he seems wildly out of character from a modern perspective)

And that comes to the second issue. Comics, animation, etc. are primarily visual media. Trying to get a character across in text alone is harder than it sounds and requires a lot on the part of the writer. (Like those novelty books "written" by Garfield, Miss Piggy, etc. A few sentences in and you're usually hearing the writer, not the character) Let's take Kevin Conroy's Batman as an example, as many people consider him to as close to "definitive" as any. You can write exactly as Conroy speaks - heck, you can transcribe text directly from dialogue he actually said - but without hearing that distinctive voice and seeing Batman on your screen, it soon just becomes generic text, because Conroy's Batman is deliberately played in a subdued way. Text doesn't give you the subtleties and nuances of his acting - it's just the words. Like the difference between reading sheet music and hearing music.

I'm not trying to dictate any regulations about these sorts of pages, as I obviously don't have the authority to do so, and I don't frequent them anyway, so it makes no real difference to me. But I'd just like to say that if a character isn't suited for a self-demonstrating page, that doesn't mean the character is somehow lesser. It's not a badge of shame. If you try and fail to make one for your favourite character, that's not a knock - it takes a specific flavour of character to make one of these pages entertaining to read. That's why the Joker has one but Catwoman doesn't, and Animal has one but Kermit doesn't. The key is just a pinch of Flanderization. Writing the character more broadly than you usually would makes up for the limits of the text-only format. Take The Mighty Thor for example. If I were making a page for him, I'd use the Stan Lee version over the Chris Hemsworth version. Not that the movie version is bad, but the comic version is more distinct, recognizable and fun for these purposes.

For the Kung Fu Panda inquiry - I've never seen the movie, but if Po is as hammy and over-the-top as Jack Black's other characters, there's definitely potential for a good page there. And if it doesn't work, remember - it's not a demerit against the character.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#706: Feb 8th 2022 at 10:40:58 AM

Yeah, the "distinct voice" isn't necessarily about personality, just speaking style. If the Self-Demonstrating page would just be a first-person trope page with nothing interesting, it doesn't make for an interesting read.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#707: Feb 9th 2022 at 3:11:30 AM

Aye, the point of this cleanup is that you need a distinct speaking style not simply a distinct personality to make a page.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Wafer Troy Verde from the Banjo-Tooie world, meditating (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Troy Verde
#708: Feb 27th 2022 at 7:15:04 PM

Neku Sakuraba is "original character page but in first person" and... scrolling down, they didn't even try to make the rest of the entries fit.

Guys how cool would it be if Super Megaforce had a green ranger...
spyland2 Since: Jun, 2021
#709: Feb 27th 2022 at 8:28:13 PM

So Sword Art Online Yuuki Konno got created a few hours ago. However, the byte count for the page is currently at 37,919 bytes. Should it get merged back to Sword Art Online Major Characters? Thanks.

Wafer Troy Verde from the Banjo-Tooie world, meditating (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Troy Verde
#710: Feb 27th 2022 at 8:39:43 PM

[up] Wrong thread, you're looking for this one

Guys how cool would it be if Super Megaforce had a green ranger...
spyland2 Since: Jun, 2021
#711: Feb 27th 2022 at 8:59:33 PM

I just posted the Sword Art question in the Character Specific Pages thread.

Wafer Troy Verde from the Banjo-Tooie world, meditating (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Troy Verde
#712: Mar 2nd 2022 at 3:58:06 PM

Bumping this thread. We never really got to SelfDemonstrating.Neku Sakuraba even though it's a really bad page.

Guys how cool would it be if Super Megaforce had a green ranger...
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#713: Mar 2nd 2022 at 4:35:52 PM

[up]I'd say it's not worth keeping. He has a bit of personality that could be reflected, but not really a whole unique style of conversation.

My musician page
Wafer Troy Verde from the Banjo-Tooie world, meditating (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Troy Verde
#714: Mar 3rd 2022 at 12:56:30 PM

Sent it to the cut list [tup]

Guys how cool would it be if Super Megaforce had a green ranger...
troper101 (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#715: Jun 13th 2022 at 1:08:18 AM

So I don't want to sound rude, but it's been over three months now and nothing's been done about what seems to be the main problem, which is people making a Self-Demonstrating Article for whatever character they like, regardless of whether or not their personality is suited for such a page, and then it being sent to the cutlist, rinse and repeat. Is there possibly a way to lock the Self-Demonstrating Article feature so that future pages can be vetted somehow?

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#716: Jun 13th 2022 at 3:27:18 AM

It's possible for the namespace to be locked, yes. Historically, though, the mods have rejected that option, and TBH as someone who personally favors it the fact that this thread has been inactive for so long isn't really compelling evidence for changing that position, though I admit it's possible that a bunch of bad new Self-Demonstrating pages have been made and simply gone unnoticed.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#717: Jul 5th 2022 at 8:44:32 PM

So, I was just going through the namespace and found a bunch of self-demonstrating character pages that are currently not listed on the main index. There are as follows:

Some of them I think have enough content, but are they worth putting up? Are there any that should be cut for whatever reason?

AlicornGaia Fishy from Mega Man Zero Earth Since: Sep, 2019 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Fishy
#718: Jul 5th 2022 at 9:18:02 PM

Not sure for the others but Aang’s currently not finished converting yet.

"Come on Zero. Fight me. It feels so good :3"
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#719: Jul 6th 2022 at 4:24:34 AM

Haven't looked at the others yet but SelfDemonstrating.Kimi Finster doesn't have a unique voice at all. I'll be fine with cutting that one.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 6th 2022 at 7:24:49 AM

Macron's notes
bwburke94 I am mad scientist! It's so cool! from 1.048596% (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
I am mad scientist! It's so cool!
#720: Jul 6th 2022 at 9:39:44 AM

Cut 'em all.

2025: the year it all ends?
PhantomDusclops92 Nitpicky Nitwit from Italy Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Nitpicky Nitwit
#721: Jul 6th 2022 at 10:31:18 AM

Dexter and Mai seem fine to me...

Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#722: Aug 6th 2022 at 4:39:17 PM

So a SD page for Thrackerzod was made today. I have no idea if this character warrant one (it's from a MLP Abridged series), but it seems to be not a legitimate page.

bwburke94 I am mad scientist! It's so cool! from 1.048596% (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
I am mad scientist! It's so cool!
#723: Aug 6th 2022 at 5:09:03 PM

Easy cut.

2025: the year it all ends?
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#724: Aug 15th 2022 at 7:00:41 AM

SelfDemonstrating.Felicia was made last month and it's... well, just a first person character page with no voice whatsoever.

The only reason I found it was that the creator posted on the discussion page. I would really like the namespace to be locked. Yes, this thread isn't terribly active, but that's because frankly, we just don't notice most of these bad pages being made.

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bwburke94 I am mad scientist! It's so cool! from 1.048596% (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
I am mad scientist! It's so cool!
#725: Aug 15th 2022 at 10:07:53 AM

Easy cut. And yeah, we're approaching the point where a namespace lock makes sense.

2025: the year it all ends?

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