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Ambiguous Name: Lets You And Him Fight

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Deadlock Clock: Feb 11th 2015 at 11:59:00 PM
May 22nd 2014 at 7:16:41 PM

From the trope page itself:

—-

Also commonly known in comics fandoms as "Fight Then Team Up," or the "Marvel Misunderstanding" (even in the Marvel Bullpen!) The phrase probably first comes from the 1930s Popeye comic strip as a catchphrase of Wimpy, who often gets Popeye to fight big tough guys he's wronged - thus becoming a Got Volunteered situation. "Let's You and Him Fight" is also the title of a Fleischer Studios Popeye short revolving around a boxing match between Popeye and Bluto. It also appears in Eric Berne's 1964 book Games People Play as one of the identified behavior patterns, although he used it to describe what we call Triang Relations.

the current name sounds like dialogue and comes from an obscure reference that only tangentially fits the description.

The laconic is "Heroes fighting heroes due to confusion, egos or some other factor" and is usually used for two heroes fighting each other when they first meet in a crossover.

The name, as per the description given, comes from either a sidekick tricking the hero into fighting a third party for him (Wimpy explanation which is better as Got Volunteered) or a hero vs a villain (Popeye vs Bluto) or as another name for Triang Relations.

Seeing as the trope page itself spells out how its a terrible name and suggests better ones, can we change to one of the better ones so its easier to find?

Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
May 22nd 2014 at 8:11:49 PM

Valid points. I already took out the sinkhole to Triang Relations, though, because that page is about the various combinations of attraction that a love triangle can take. It has nothing to do with the trope described on Let's You and Him Fight.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
KarjamP The imaginative Christian Asperger from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
May 23rd 2014 at 2:10:02 AM

This isn't necessarily a crossover trope, as the Cave Story example were to tell you.

May 23rd 2014 at 6:12:19 AM

I'd suggest changing to something along the lines of "necessary unnecessary fight" or "obligatory battle."

May 23rd 2014 at 6:55:20 AM

The trope page suggests Fight Then Team Up and Marvel Misunderstanding, neither of which have to be crossover specific. And both of which already act as redirects.

We could expand Marvel Misunderstanding to Heroic Misunderstanding so it could be two heroes from the same series/franchise too.

We could make it Strangers On The Same Side or Heroic Intruder just something short to imply that two guys with the same affiliation mistake each other for being foes.

Ooh maybe Same Affiliation Foes?

I'm not partial to anything really just the current one has got to go.

edited 23rd May '14 6:56:27 AM by acrobox

DonaldthePotholer from Somewhere in (not)Miami
May 24th 2014 at 7:21:45 AM

Marvel Misunderstanding indicates a bit of Trope Namer Syndrome. On the other hand, Heroic Misunderstanding sounds a lot more like Poor Communication Kills.

But since Fight Then Team Up is a valid redirect, without having the problems of Marvel Misunderstanding, this should be the name to use... so long as any potential confusion between that phrase and general fighting amongst Vitriolic Best Buds is resolvable.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
May 24th 2014 at 7:58:19 AM

Aye, rename this one. I am not decided on expanding or not.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
May 24th 2014 at 12:12:09 PM

I can safely say this is one of the oldest tropes on the site, the name has always been a little clunky but it is telling that the original intention is not so much "heroes mistake each other for the bad guys" as it is an excuse for Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny (the pictures are virtually identical). I mean, just read the name Let's You and Him Fight carefully.

I will say straight up that I don't like a name like Fight Then Team Up, because it is just as clunky even if it is more accurate. It's more of a description of the trope rather than a name. Heroic Misunderstanding is okay in principle, but I think the trope is slightly broader than a misunderstanding. It's more about a conflict of interests that could be a misunderstanding or it could just be a personality clash that makes them hate each other even though they are ostensibly on the same side.

But the core of the trope follows these points:

  • Two heroic characters
  • They operate in different arenas, which could be:
    • Location: They operate out of a different city
    • Time: Whether it be Fish out of Temporal Water or just an Old Master who has been out of the loop for years vs the young hotshot
    • Universe: The massive universe jumping crossover such as Marvel and DC
  • One or both are not fully aware/accepting of what the other is trying to accomplish
  • They fight because at least one believes the other is a Threshold Guardian of some sort, possibly because:
  • Through that fight, they gain each others respect and turn their strength against a mutual enemy.

I can't say I have a perfect name but maybe Fighting The Future Friend.

DoktorvonEurotrash Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
May 24th 2014 at 12:37:11 PM

[up]The problem is, the name Let's You and Him Fight doesn't in the least sound like it means that. I always assumed it was about a Manipulative Bastard tricking someone into fighting someone else for him.

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
May 24th 2014 at 5:11:50 PM

^ thats exactly what it does mean according to the trope description itself.

The problem with the name is it implies the the point is that a third party is getting the two heroes to fight. Usually they just fight on their own.

edited 25th May '14 12:51:32 AM by acrobox

May 28th 2014 at 12:08:52 AM

Calling for Crowner

I think we're mostly in agreement that we need a name change.

MacronNotes She/her from In my bed Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
She/her
Jun 27th 2014 at 5:21:12 PM

I think we should have a wick check to see how this is used before we decide to do a crowner. I'll try to come up one if I'm able to.

edited 28th Jun '14 6:46:58 PM by MacronNotes

Links for self reference: English Localization Cleanup and Appearance Tropes Cleanup 💖💜💙
MacronNotes She/her from In my bed Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
She/her
Jul 7th 2014 at 10:30:01 PM

Okay, before I start the wick check, I have a question to ask; is "Manipulative Bastard tricks two heroes into fighting each other" covered by Let's You and Him Fight or is that another trope?

Links for self reference: English Localization Cleanup and Appearance Tropes Cleanup 💖💜💙
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jul 7th 2014 at 11:06:35 PM

Yep, that is exactly what Let's You and Him Fight is about.

edited 9th Jul '14 12:29:32 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Jul 8th 2014 at 11:04:52 AM

The description as written implies that the bad guy does not have to have manipulated the heroes.

I feel like a supertrope for heroes fighting each other with a trope about them being manipulated into by the baddie as a subtrope might be best here.

KarjamP The imaginative Christian Asperger from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
Jul 8th 2014 at 11:22:10 AM

[up][up]Then there's a problem:

Either, it's a sign that there's misuse (if the trope's really about what he said) or it's a sign that the name implies something too specific for what the trope's about (if it's not).

Either way, there's a problem with the trope.

[up][nja]

edited 8th Jul '14 11:22:43 AM by KarjamP

MacronNotes She/her from In my bed Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
She/her
Jul 8th 2014 at 8:44:42 PM

Here's a wick check for 50 wicks of Let's You and Him Fight as promised.


"Manipulative Bastard tricks two characters or heroes into fighting each other."

  1. Alien: Isolation
  2. Anarky
  3. Cenotaph
  4. Civilization
  5. Durarara!!
  6. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
  7. Gunslinger Girl
  8. Homeless Two Tail
  9. Humans Are Psychic in the Future
  10. Hyperdimension Neptunia mk2
  11. Kingdom Hearts: 358/2 Days
  12. Illuminati: New World Order
  13. Light and Dark The Adventures of Dark Yagami
  14. The Measure of a Titan
  15. Pirate101
  16. Warbreaker
  17. Sandman Mystery Theatre

Zero Context Examples/Unclear

  1. Archie Comics' Sonic the Hedgehog: ZCE
  2. The Avatars Trilogy: Unclear
  3. Dr. No:Not enough context.
  4. Freezing:Unclear
  5. Girls Next Door: Unclear pothole.
  6. Gitaroo Man
  7. Grey Knights: Unclear context
  8. Haloid:ZCE
  9. Homeless Two Tail
  10. Community S 3 E 13 Digital Exploration Of Interior Design: ZCE
  11. Magica Madoka Veneficus Puella: Unclear
  12. Hakkenden Touhou Hakken Ibun
  13. Yukari's Offer: Looks unclear to me.
  14. Itsuka Tenma no Kuro Usagi
  15. Pokémon: Giratina and the Sky Warrior
  16. Street Fighter
  17. Spider-Man: Web of Shadows

Heroes fight each other due to a misunderstanding.

  1. Cave Story
  2. For a Few Dollars More
  3. Game of Thrones S4E10: "The Children"
  4. Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's Portable
  5. Paperinik New Adventures
  6. Superman and the ThunderCats
  7. Iron Man & Hulk: Heroes United
  8. Sonic Heroes
  9. Ukiah Oregon
  10. Shanghai Noon
  11. Snow Means Cold
  12. She Who Skitters In Shadows

Misuse

  1. City Hunter: "Mick Angel and Ryo's way to say hello when they met after very long time? Shoot at each other until they emptied their guns. Then they started laughing like idiots, and, after Mick revealed he had been hired to kill Ryo, they hit a few pubs."
  2. Double Dragon Neon: "At the end of the game, during bro-op, Billy and Jimmy fight for Marian's affection, complete with her cheering them on in the background."
  3. Towerof God: "Novick wants to establish team hierarchy by fighting."
  4. Power Girl: That quote looks more like "I Know You Are in There Somewhere" Fight than Let's You and Him Fight

edited 9th Jul '14 1:53:21 PM by MacronNotes

Links for self reference: English Localization Cleanup and Appearance Tropes Cleanup 💖💜💙
Jul 8th 2014 at 9:05:51 PM

......34% unambiguously correct usage? That's pretty terrible. We definitely need to rename this then

Jul 10th 2014 at 12:45:43 PM

The description says a villain manipulating the situation is entirely optional. The laconic doesn't even mention the possibility, only a generic "or some other factor". The trope as currently written clearly isn't exclusively about villains manipulating heroes into fighting each other.

Jul 10th 2014 at 1:16:29 PM

That's still only 58% correct.

MacronNotes She/her from In my bed Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
She/her
Jul 21st 2014 at 2:54:12 AM

Well, in any case, I think the trope needs fixing. As mentioned, Let's You and Him Fight's name implies that a third party manipulates the heroes into fighting each other while the description states it's a variant of the trope and the laconic is "Heroes fighting heroes due to confusion, egos or some other factor." which is a little broader than the trope's description.

I also find the description confusing and unfocused. The first paragraph is about "two heroes (who are strangers to each other) fight due to a mistaking each other as the enemy" But the rest of the paragraphs focus on the "The Big Bad or Manipulative Bastard tricks the heroes into fighting each other" variant. And then the fifth paragraph is about the Big Bad manipulating other bad guys (instead of the good guys themselves) getting rid of the heroes or other villains for him. The next sentence includes another variant in which the Guile Hero tricks their foes into fighting each other for their convenience... I guess this trope isn't limited to heroes and the characters just need to be on the same side then?

So, in short, I think the trope needs be renamed and get a clearer description. I also feel that "a third party manipulates two characters into fighting each other" should be split off from Let's You and Him Fight.

Links for self reference: English Localization Cleanup and Appearance Tropes Cleanup 💖💜💙
NativeJovian from Orlando, FL
Aug 21st 2014 at 12:40:49 PM

Let's You and Him Fight always sounded to me like two people decide to fight each other for no particular reason, other than maybe because they're bored or they just like fighting for its own sake. In any case, I agree that the name is bad and should be changed. I don't have a good alternate suggestion, though.

The trope definition, to my understanding, is "two characters that would normally be on the same side end up fighting each other because of lack of communication (often for contrived reasons to add drama or just as an excuse to have a really cool fight between two heroes)". Being manipulated by a third party into fighting each other can be an example, but the core definition is "two people fighting, who wouldn't if they actually talked to each other".

Vos iustus a diversis genus delirus.
IndirectActiveTransport You Give Me Fever from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
You Give Me Fever
Aug 23rd 2014 at 7:10:25 AM

Honestly, this name seems fine. I think the idea that they have to team up afterwards is where the problem lies. Excise that as a necessity and there is no more problem. Just make it two parties that really have no business fighting but do so out of misunderstanding, sometimes one cultivated by a third party;teaming up afterwards against said third party common but optional (as Popeye was never going to clobber Wimpy)

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
DonaldthePotholer from Somewhere in (not)Miami
Sep 17th 2014 at 5:45:57 PM

[up]That sounds to me like we have a case of Missing Sub-Trope Syndrome. Which probably is the case. So how about this:

edited 17th Sep '14 5:48:11 PM by DonaldthePotholer

Page Action: Lets You And Him Fight
18th Oct '14 1:56:58 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
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