TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

General Japanese Culture Thread

Go To

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#6851: May 17th 2024 at 5:37:52 AM

But he was still one of the closest bodyguards to Nobunaga back then, hence why he can be called a "honorary" samurai of sorts.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#6852: May 17th 2024 at 5:44:25 AM

For what it's worth, JP's Wikipedia page on Yasuke lists him both as 家臣 (retainer/vassal) and 士分 (one of two martial ranks above foot soldier, either a foot soldier recognized as a samurai or as a full samurai allowed to ride horses), it looks like.

It's been fun.
Imca (Veteran)
#6853: May 17th 2024 at 7:48:21 AM

Yea, no, he is 100% reconized as a samurai by historians and the thing is going on is racisim.

Here is an ask historians reddit thread on the topic because I am lazy

But the basic point is the arguments people have been making agianst are actualy arguments for, he recived a stipend which is something that only samurai did... also "he only got mentioned in 3 diffrent sources isnt that weird for some one as novel as a black samurai"

3 diffent historical sources is actualy quite a lot, most minor samurai (which is what he would have been) were only mentioned in one

Also he was retained by Nobunaga even after he dismissed all his Ashigaru which is something that would very much indicate a higher status.

There really isn't a controversy about his status as samurai amongst JP sources, dispute what the specific internet crowd is trying to frame it as.

But there is controversy on JP internet at annoyance of the constant use of the handful of western decent samurai in media, and the fact that every one else was allowed to star there own assassins creed game, even China, but not when it came to Japan, paired with feelings of not being treated well by the videogame industry in general, which is a bit more understandable.

Edited by Imca on May 18th 2024 at 12:06:48 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#6854: May 17th 2024 at 7:57:13 AM

Not to mention he fought with a sword. Swords in real life were considered weapons of nobility for a reason — they were fucking expensive to make. Regular ass soldiers were usually stuck with spears and other relatively cheaper weapons.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6855: May 17th 2024 at 8:19:49 AM

Good to know. I'll be sure to throw that in certain people's faces.

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#6856: May 17th 2024 at 8:58:06 AM

Something that's probably confusing the conversation is that samurai came to mean a strict social class in the following Edo Period, which there was no real social mobility with. But during the Sengoku Period when warfare was commonplace, anyone who made a name for themselves fighting was broadly considered a samurai, and samurai could move up through military and social ranks if their abilities were recognized. We can just look at one of Nobunaga's most famous allies Toyotomi Hideyoshi, whose early life is unclear but he came from a low-born enough background that he originally lacked a family name, his father is thought to either be a farmer or an ashigaru (very low ranking foot soldier).

Basically, Yasuke would never have been able to become a samurai in the Edo Period, but he was in the Sengoku Period and if Nobunaga was having him perform military duties and paying him well for it then he was a samurai.

Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6857: May 17th 2024 at 9:55:18 AM

[up][up][up][up]At least we know who would be the protagonist of a hypotetical Assassin's Creed set in 18-century Russia.)

Edited by Smeagol17 on May 17th 2024 at 7:55:46 PM

Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#6858: May 17th 2024 at 11:17:40 AM

Why are people up in arms about this specific thing, when Assassin's creed has already taken liberties with other historical time periods? I mean the whole premise of the series.

It's interesting that Japan has already made a bunch of media about Yasuke and taken their own liberties with the historical character. I wonder how Japanese fans feel about this

Edited by Xopher001 on May 17th 2024 at 11:18:46 AM

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6859: May 17th 2024 at 11:23:56 AM

Why are people up in arms about this specific thing, when Assassin's creed has already taken liberties with other historical time periods?

Racism.

Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#6860: May 17th 2024 at 11:30:18 AM

Yeah I was being half rhetorical. It's always racism

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#6861: May 17th 2024 at 11:30:51 AM

[up][up][up]Japanese fans have an issue in which they feel that having a game of their own country being represented by a foreigner killing Japanese, plus other issues feels wrong for them.

Edited by LoneCourier0 on May 17th 2024 at 8:31:01 PM

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
Imca (Veteran)
#6862: May 17th 2024 at 11:32:29 AM

I covered how japanese fans feel here.

But there is controversy on JP internet at annoyance of the constant use of the handful of western decent samurai in media, and the fact that every one else was allowed to star there own assassins creed game, even China, but not when it came to Japan, paired with feelings of not being treated well by the videogame industry in general, which is a bit more understandable.

The so called "foreigner killing Japanese" is one of the chery picked examples spread by the online right to try and fit there narrative of him not being a samurai.

Bigger is "Why was the assassins creed game set in china allowed to star Chinese, but the assassins creed game set in Japan cant star native Japanese" which focuses more on the you know.... China got there own bit.

Edited by Imca on May 18th 2024 at 3:35:01 AM

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#6863: May 17th 2024 at 11:35:24 AM

Outside of anyone just being racist against black people in their games, there's the argument that this it's one of very few Assassin's Creed games that stars someone not ethnically of the region it takes place it. The first game in the Middle-East stars a Middle-Eastern man, the games in Italy star an Italian man, the game in the American colonies stars a half-British half-Native American man, the game in France stars a French man, the game in Egypt stars an Egyptian man, the game in Greece stars a Greek man or woman, etc. So it stands out that the game set in Japan stars an African man instead.

Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#6864: May 17th 2024 at 11:37:51 AM

[up][up]It took me a couple of tries to understand what the complaint was. It's that the game is focusing on a samurai of Western descent when there are already plenty of native Japanese samurai the game could have focused on, which is made worse because every other Assassin's Creed game has starred someone from that game's setting.

Edited by Mullon on May 17th 2024 at 2:38:04 PM

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6865: May 17th 2024 at 11:38:48 AM

Wait, didn't the new AC have two protagonists? One being Yasuke, and the other being some kinda shinobi?

Imca (Veteran)
#6866: May 17th 2024 at 11:41:59 AM

They have had two protagonists for a while, but it one or the other depending on if you choose to play as male or female.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6867: May 17th 2024 at 11:44:34 AM

I meant this one specifically.

Imca (Veteran)
#6868: May 17th 2024 at 11:47:18 AM

Yea, again, male or female choice.

If you want to delve into the sexism innate to a lot of Asian culture, and how it means no one really gives a shit about Naoe, that would be a fun/depressing topic.... but the reality is that she is seen as secondary because well woman.

The short version though is women are innately seen as having lesser standing then men, so that ties back into the "Western samurai are always given priority over native samurai" feeling.

Which is.... depressing.

Edited by Imca on May 18th 2024 at 3:49:01 AM

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6869: May 17th 2024 at 11:59:25 AM

Well, then the complaints are kinda crap, since there clearly is a native Japanese protagonist. Unless she clearly plays second fiddle to Yasuke, I don't really see an issue here.

Edited by Kayeka on May 17th 2024 at 12:00:29 PM

Imca (Veteran)
#6870: May 17th 2024 at 12:11:31 PM

Except, your looking at it as a one off thing, rather then a continuation of a trend that its being seen as.

Which is William, William, William, more William, fictional western samurai, More William.

Now Yasuke, who sure is a bit of a diversion from the trend of "White imperialist", but still falls into the trend of having to use the western born samurai as the protagonist in media.... which only ghost of tsushima really broke.

Paired with the above of "China got there own" and you lit a powder keg, because... uhhh.... to say there isn't good relations with China, and that them being seen as getting better treatment by the internet is a good way to make people mad is an understatement.

Edited by Imca on May 18th 2024 at 4:13:22 AM

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6871: May 17th 2024 at 12:30:34 PM

I mean, sure, but are we really just going to ignore that there is a native Japanese protagonist as well?

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#6872: May 17th 2024 at 3:50:24 PM

Kayeka, I don't know why you're acting like Imca is leading the charge on devaluing the Japanese main character, instead of relaying what the Japanese playerbase is saying and how they're reacting to the character.

If the topic is the Japanese reaction to the game's publicity at the moment, it doesn't make sense to go "well the complaints are crap" when all Imca is doing is sharing info from beyond the language barrier.

Edited by RedSavant on May 17th 2024 at 7:50:44 PM

It's been fun.
ChicoTheParakeet Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#6873: May 17th 2024 at 3:59:48 PM

You know what IS crap? Ubisoft.

In all seriousness, I can see how a gaijin protagonist can be seen as oppressive. A gaijin can be of any foreign race.

Edited by ChicoTheParakeet on May 17th 2024 at 7:14:20 AM

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6874: May 17th 2024 at 5:16:41 PM

[up][up]Which is why I'm not responding to her, but to the opinions she relays.

Imca (Veteran)
#6875: May 17th 2024 at 7:54:16 PM

Your not responding to the sentiments though your deliberately missing the argument to try and make it about what you imagine and discard it.

So let me try approaching this from a diffeent direction.

The argument and what is upsetting people isnt Yasuke himself, he is a black samurai, that's cool/ he's cool, it's a feeling of resentment and being treated as second class by the industry.

For all the pushes the west makes about diversity and inclusion what was the last major game to star an explicitly japanese protagonist? Ghost of Tsushima no? That game was loved, but look beyond it.

You have black protagonists (I know there the minority personaly, but they do exist), Chinese protagonists, definatly white protagonists... but a distinct lack of Japanese protagonists.

Japan has a fascinating history though no, we have a lot of fun stories to tell with that so what's going on.

Oh right it's all forigners all the way down, we are continually denied even staring in our own history by white men.

Yasuke may not be white, but white/black is the same problem when you dont have the understanding of amercian racisim background.

Then into this comes Asssassins Creed, every other culture got full reign over there assassins creed title, the Greeks were both Greek, the Vikings were both viking, the English twins are both english... but when it comes to Japan we get a half choice, we get treated as what's seen like lesser agian and its building upon an overall feeling of resentment....

Its not "eww black samurai" its "why did we get snubbed agian?"note 

You can and indeed personaly I would make the argument that the industry isnt explicitly hostile to the Japanese identity(Its just shit to every one who isnt white as a whole), but that is not the current feeling...

Or did you forget about the controversy over the term JRPG earlier this year.

It's the same underlying mess.


[up][up] Like it really wouldnt be on it's own but your kinda missing a whole lot of context when you look at just this particular issue...

Which I hope I was able to frame but I do worry I am not relaying the best...

Edited by Imca on May 18th 2024 at 12:18:28 AM


Total posts: 7,058
Top