As I pointed out on the Box Office thread pertaining to Dark Fate on RT, despite it bombing: "70% of 351 critics' reviews are positive, with an average rating of 6.2/10" according to Wikipedia. As was also pointed out, the brand was so damaged by that point that it clearly didn't matter what critics said though. Also, even still, most opinions of Dark Fate are pretty low (though not me, I really liked it and did think it was a fairly worthy successor to the first three).
See I’m in the rare camp that actually liked Terminator III the most of the sequels. Far from a good movie but it did offer some stuff I found myself enjoying. The flaws of that film feel a lot more manageable compared to the rest of the film entries.
Genysis was pretty bad because of how uninspired it felt but Dark Fate just got on my nerves the most. It was the Alien 3 of the Terminator series and it just started off wrong with the creative decisions it made. Killing off John Conner felt a lot more personal than killing off Sarah Conner in 3 because her death at least happens in a more subdued way (and off screen) whereas John getting axed on screen felt like a massive punch to the face. And the new characters just didn’t do it for me.
Still haven’t seen Salvation. I have heard it’s decent.
I discover my own destiny as I command the winds of life!Salvation wasn't great, but I did like how it introduced the concept of a human Terminator. Rather than a robot disguised to look like a human and programmed with a mission, it's a human with most of their body replaced with robotics and made into a Manchurian Agent by Skynet.
Especially since said human Terminator is the protagonist.
Edited by M84 on Dec 20th 2023 at 10:36:51 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedThe only thing I know about Salvation is that Christian Bale had this behind the scenes outrage at his crew and it got leaked to the internet.
The actual premise seems decent. Being set during the actual terminator war wins some points. But as I look at clips I can’t help but feel that the story is dull.
Maybe I’ll watch someday.
I discover my own destiny as I command the winds of life!Oh, that's just because Peter walked onto the set:
Salvation is the one sequel that had a premise that wasn't just "let's do T2 again". So, it's got that going for it.
I do know the film was also notable for being one of the first major Hollywood releases to have its ending leaked before it came out, which forced the filmmakers to hastily change it in post after they saw the negative fan response. Namely, originally John Connor was going to die and the resistance was going to have Marcus take his place by grafting John's skin over him, so the idea of John Connor would outlive the actual man.
Given the reaction to Dark Fate pulling a similar stunt, you can kind of understand why they didn't go this route.
In many respects Salvation was probably the best idea for a new trilogy, there was a real mystique about the robot war future and so few confirmed characters that they had an open field to play in. Its' main failing was probably a script that was too convoluted and derivative (too much energy was spent on the importance of Kyle Reese and maintaining the Stable Time Loop), while by the end had killed Marcus and the other resistance leaders, the characters that made it feel unique.
Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.I kind of respect Terminator III as the film that has a fitting bad ending. Like you are supposed to feel bad by the end and it is supposed to be tragic. If we are willing to decide that there HAS to be a sequel to T2, T3 feels appropriate. The rise of the machines is a cool bad ending.
But this is subjective. Others can appreciate Dark Fate where I cannot while I’m sure I appreciate T3 where others hate it.
I discover my own destiny as I command the winds of life!I loved the third one at the time that it came out and frankly, it actually does still hold up pretty well.
I liked Salvation fine for what it was and Genisys I never hated. It was trying so hard to be the Kelvin Timeline version of Terminator and unfortunately for many, it didn't go over well. For many, it actually backfired really badly instead.
I remember liking Rise of the Machines well enough when it first came out, it just couldn't stack up to T2. Revisiting it I was shocked that there was a lot more jokey humor than I remembered. Even the bathroom fight, at the time lauded as one of the more insane sequences of the movie, was filled with a lot of expression takes and physical gags between dunking the TX into the toilet and grabbing Arnold by the crotch. Still, I think the ending redeems the overall movie as the previous films were not exactly happy, carefree conclusions either and this felt appropriately full circle.
Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.I remember reading through AFI's list of the 400 Nominated Characters for the 100 Heroes & Villains list and Sarah Connor was in there…for the first Terminator. I wondered why not the second one where she was WAY more empowered and tough and it didn't make sense. Then I eventually realized: HER SURVIVAL not only insures that humanity's fight in the future can be won—or has a chance at all, but her son who she'll raise and be powerful and strong for will grow into that savior THANKS TO HER.
That by the end she's able to begin her journey to that and stop letting herself be a victim ("You're terminated fucker!"—which on Sci-Fi back then obviously edited out the last word haha) is an incredible thing. If not for her trials and tribulations in the first film, she wouldn't BE the T2 Sarah.
She's also in a much darker place in the second movie, being willing to murder a man thinking it will help prevent Judgement Day. During that whole sequence she even acts much like the T-800 that ruined her life in the first movie.
It shows that while she became stronger due to the events of the first movie, it was not without a price.
Edited by M84 on Dec 22nd 2023 at 12:36:28 AM
Disgusted, but not surprisedOh absolutely of course. Just because she got stronger and more capable, didn't mean it didn't come with a heavy price.
To think, had Danny not hit Dyson with his remote-controlled car, Sarah's sniper shot would've gotten him. She's lucky that it came down to her holding the gun on him and ultimately having the chance to think it over so she could back down in the end.
Ironic that so many who called that portrayal badass, now also routinely deride equally capable, but much more mentally healthy, female characters.
Talk about Dramatically Missing the Point. That or they require all female character's to suffer terribly before they'll ever consider liking them. Wouldn't surprise me given the only other prominent female protagnist those types ever (token) talk about in a positive light is Ripley.
Edited by Avenger09 on Dec 21st 2023 at 11:49:32 AM
Hey, AVP was the franchises returning theatrically after 7 (Resurrection) and 14 (Predator 2) years, so it certainly renewed interest.
Always nice to see more people plain liking T3 when it gets unfairly overhated. It's flawed but at least is a good way to continue the story and set up the future war that led to the whole mess, along with actually progressing John Connor compared to how the two attempts at rebooting instead first made him a villain and then unceremoniously killed him.
Let's be perfect honest, there's so much that T3 does do right despite its flaws that I definitely think it can be forgiven. Dark Fate had more of the benefits of being as gritty and hardcore as the first two, but T3 is something that is way better at respecting the lore though when it comes to fans.
By the time Dark Fate came out fans were much more burned by the franchise than they were at the release of III. Maybe if it'd been released without the others having seen the light, it would have gotten a better reception?
It's still so much of a waste in the form of doing away with John, though.
Genysis is the nadir, either way.
Please remember that, ultimately, fictional works of entertainment are just that.I think Dark Fate just rubs me the wrong way the most. It throws aside John and replaces him with generic characters who are just John Connor clones imo. And because of that, especially because of how it ends with the war happening anyway despite Skynet not existing, it leads to a sour experience.
Whereas, despite Terminator 3 having pretty bleak story points the end experience feels more subdued and mature (aside from breast enlargement tasteless fanservice.)
I discover my own destiny as I command the winds of life!

What happened to the franchise is that after T2 the bar was set so high that all future works are just doing an homage to the first two films. We got a passable follow-up with T3 that you can appreciate as Bookends, but then we had a TV show and three films that were promoted as the start of a fresh trilogy while just not delivering confidence in what was to come. Dark Fate got the best reviews, but the baggage of multiple UnReboots (and really not that long after Genysis) meant the audience wasn't there.
I think a lot about how Warner Brothers waited 8 years after Batman & Robin before Batman Begins was made, which made it such a refreshing... gift to fans. With reboots happening now every 3-4 years and announced the instant a work gets a bad reception something is lost.
Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.