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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#1251: Apr 9th 2019 at 8:38:09 AM

I use this definition:

  • Communism is everyone is equal.
  • Socialism is the government takes care of your needs.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1252: Apr 9th 2019 at 9:23:06 AM

Those are the definitions I use, too. And I think those are the definitions most of the US uses. Except the right still insists they are pure evil, which results in all sorts of mental gymnastics to explain how "the government taking care of your needs is a sign of the antichrist." And while only the most extreme believe that, it bleeds into the rest of the right, with the "well obviously it would be good if the government could take care of your needs, but that's not actually possible, and anyone who tells you otherwise is just trying to steal from people who work hard."

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
MABfan11 from Remnant Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#1253: Apr 9th 2019 at 9:32:20 AM

doesn't socialism also involve the workers owning the means of production?

Bumbleby is best ship. busy spending time on r/RWBY and r/anime. Unapologetic Socialist
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#1254: Apr 9th 2019 at 9:36:14 AM

And yes, I'm aware the author was a socialist. But Welles wasn't blind to the problems of Stalinism.

Animal Farm was written by George Orwell.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1255: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:25:26 AM

[up]Ugh, I really didn't get enough sleep today. How did I make that mistake?

[up][up]Yes. Socialism revolves around social ownership of the means of production and political management of the economy.

Social programs are not socialism per se.

Edited by M84 on Apr 10th 2019 at 1:27:44 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#1256: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:28:25 AM

[up][up][up] Not quite, that is Marxism. Marxism is a theory though, a critique on capitalism, not a political system. Marx wanted to get to this stage though, so he invented socialism. But socialism was always meant to be some in-between thing, some sort of stepping stone so that you would eventually get to a system in which everyone owns the result of his own work fully.

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 9th 2019 at 10:29:02 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1257: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:29:47 AM

Socialist thought existed before Marx. Marx was the one who, as you said, considered it merely a transition phase to a true moneyless, classless, stateless society.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#1258: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:43:29 AM

[up] Oh, thanks for the correction.

A very simplified version would be:

Capitalism: The rich control the capital

Marxism: The workers control the capital

Socialism: The state controls the capital

Communism: Everyone controls the capital

And that is why Socialism and Communism are so hard to tell apart, because once a group has reached a certain seize it is pretty much impossible to have equal control over the capital without the state stepping in to do it, which means you more or less end up with socialism by default. And since in socialism the state controls the capital, the likelihood that you end up with a dictatorship is pretty high.

Capital pretty much stands for power, btw.

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 9th 2019 at 10:43:57 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#1259: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:47:39 AM

I feel like this all belongs in another thread.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#1260: Apr 10th 2019 at 11:22:03 AM

So, Wrestlemania 35 came and went. I can't find any indication that Oliver's piece on WWE affected it in any way, so is it safe to say it didn't?

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1261: Apr 15th 2019 at 1:07:49 AM

Opioods part 2.

Edited by windleopard on Apr 15th 2019 at 1:08:04 AM

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#1262: Apr 15th 2019 at 12:54:13 PM

@Lark Of course not. A few drops in the shares price and all, but nothing that won't be wethered.

Besides, his suggestion on how to fix the problem isn't a viable solution anyway. The ones who have to fix it is the performers themselves.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#1263: Apr 15th 2019 at 3:54:05 PM

On Opioids II it's a fun exercise in Kuleshov Effect but I don't know if it really justified an entirely new segment on the matter. As good as those actors are we are fully aware they are actors trying to make the material as evil and dramatic as possible, so I don't know if really makes it "come alive" as much as Oliver thinks it does. Richard Kind almost redeems the segment though.

On Opioids in general I recently had some minor medical issues and for the first time in my life I had medication other than general painkillers, the doctor offered painkillers on top of it but I refused partially because of the reports of painkiller addiction but also in case of bad reactions since I don't know how my body will respond to the medication.

Edited by KJMackley on Apr 15th 2019 at 3:54:37 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1264: Apr 15th 2019 at 7:40:42 PM

[up][up]Um, the performers are the victims of the problems.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1265: Apr 15th 2019 at 8:06:20 PM

Wait, is someone actually blaming the exploited performers themselves for the abuses the industry heaps upon them?

So what, are we going to start blaming sweatshop workers for the inhumane conditions and lousy pay they endure?

Are we going to shit on the office workers in Japan who die from overwork at black companies?

Are we going to blame idols in the Idol industry for the sexual abuse in the industry?

I could go on and on here.

Edited by M84 on Apr 15th 2019 at 11:09:11 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#1266: Apr 15th 2019 at 9:19:56 PM

I'm saying they need to unionize. They need to become a united front for an actual practical answer.

Now, there's a reason why a wrestler's union doesn't exist; it's notoriously difficult to get enough of them to agree and collaborate. Many of the past were cutthroat and more interested in protecting their spot in the pecking order instead of unionizing. When an attempt was even made, the effort was sabotaged from the inside by Hulk Hogan giving Vince a head's up and nobody else wants to fight for it.

This is why I insist that this problem is far too deep-rooted to solve with things like fan backlash. Fan backlash making a difference with the performer's contracts is a fantasy. Most casual fans don't care because it doesn't impact them, us more passionate fans only have so much we can do (we don't even have enough to impact the product's quality most of the time) — which has long been ignored anyway, and most outside of this niche really don't care that much. It's something to just get upset about before moving on from because it's not important to them and there's no real commitment to seeking change. That's why change has to start with the people who it IS the most important to. Others can help along the way, but yes, the people who are victims can't just wait around for rescuers.

I can go into far more details on why this is difficult, especially because not everybody agrees on how to deal with the problem, but to summarize, they're notoriously hard to get on the same page. Hell, even with what was reported about the current performer's response to John Oliver, it was mixed.

So yeah. For real change to come, it's going to have to happen outside of WWE in the wrestling industry — which DOES exist. That's one reason I'm so excited for AEW, which the top brass of it are wrestlers who are trying to make a difference by working together and have the actual resources to do so. It's just that performers need to band together because WWE relies on divide and conquer to maintain its control.

Hell, that's me even summing up part of what fans can actually do to support them: SUPPORT VIABLE COMPETITION TO WWE! GO WITH WWE ALTERNATIVES AND INCENTIVE THOSE ALTERNATIVES TO DO THE RIGHT THING! It makes those places more attractive for performers, which helps force WWE's hand because they do NOT like competition and their solution to all problems is to 1) ignore it, 2) make PR pitches at it without addressing the underlying problem, and 3) appeal to performers on an individual basis with large sums of money.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1267: Apr 15th 2019 at 9:39:11 PM

It takes a lot of chutzpah to claim that the ones who have the responsibility to fix an exploitative abusive system are the ones being exploited and abused. That's pretty much Victim Blaming.

That's like blaming the developers at Rockstar who endured crunchtime to make RDR 2 for not doing more to demand better working conditions from Rockstar.

Edited by M84 on Apr 16th 2019 at 12:41:13 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#1268: Apr 16th 2019 at 4:19:12 AM

I don't think it is really victim blaming so much as explaining why these wrestlers are stuck in the situation. LWT suggested that fan outrage could change the situation by petitioning WWE directly, but that is a very limited approach. They may have a shot at utilizing existing actors unions since they are televised, but I'm not sure that union would want to expand there. The issue with unionizing specifically for the WWE is that they have a monopoly and single-company unions are illegal in the US (even if they weren't, the company would have to be enormous, at least a quarter million employees spread across state and country lines, because otherwise all the power would be with the union and you'd be trading one corrupt corporation for another).

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1269: Apr 16th 2019 at 5:49:58 AM

Claiming that it's up to the people who are being victimized to solve the problem is victim blaming.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#1270: Apr 16th 2019 at 3:07:08 PM

In a roundabout way, maybe, but victim blaming is saying the victim is responsible for their misfortune in the first place. The "You don't like it, just leave" or "You allowed yourself to get in that situation" argument. Trying to educate people on the dangers of a certain issue has generally proven more effective than trying to change things from the outside.

I think the best thing to happen would be a WWE figurehead like Dwayne Johnson or John Cena to support the cause.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#1271: Apr 16th 2019 at 4:28:42 PM

Unfortunately, most unionization only happens when the workers get fed up and demand rights, not when they get outside help. Yes, the workers are absolutely the victims in that situation, but they're still typically the ones who have to take action.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1272: Apr 16th 2019 at 6:24:47 PM

OTOH, workers might be more encouraged to unionize if they realized that the fanbase and customers are on their side.

Part of why unionization in the videogame industry for example has struggled to take off is that we gamers for the longest time really haven't cared much about how much stress videogame developers endure to make our games.

This is why stuff like John Oliver's piece helps. It draws attention to problems like this that most of us would rather pretend didn't exist, what with it getting in the way of our mindless escapist entertainment.

Now that I mention it, I wouldn't mind if he did a segment on the abuses of the AAA videogame industry too.

Edited by M84 on Apr 16th 2019 at 9:27:14 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#1273: Apr 17th 2019 at 8:25:54 PM

So I watched a little over half of this video here where the creator talks a bit about her criticisms with John Oliver and the show (please ignore the clickbait title, it isn't that sort of video).

I have a few problems with the video, mostly with how I feel she is using her definition of what constitutes journalism (she admits it is a vague term) to read a bit too much in regards to Oliver claiming he is not a journalist.

It is definitely a major problem with satirists using comedy as a shield from accountability and showing disdain for the concept of journalism, but unless I'm missing a lot more context, I'm honestly not sure if that is the case with the show. I myself wouldn't call John a journalist since I'd argue the research team does the actual investigative work. I see him more as a presenter. Any thoughts?

Don't catch you slippin' now.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1274: Apr 17th 2019 at 8:57:54 PM

[up]John Oliver doesn't seem to be too disrespectful of journalism. Heck, he even did a segment on how journalism in the USA is in trouble financially.

Also, here's the clip Oliver claiming he's not a journalist from CBS This Morning for reference:

Edited by M84 on Apr 18th 2019 at 12:00:41 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#1275: Apr 17th 2019 at 10:08:45 PM

please ignore the clickbait title

You think people would just not give their video clickbait titles, if they didn't want them to be perceived as clickbait.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Apr 17th 2019 at 7:09:07 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history

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