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Expy Cleanup Thread

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An expy is an unambiguous and deliberate copy of another, older character."

Note the word "another" and the words "unambiguous", "deliberate", and "copy". Those are the important words.

Here's your checklist:

  • "Unambiguous": There is no doubt, there is no room for arguing that they aren't.
    • If a plausible or convincing argument can be made that they aren't an expy, they aren't.
    • If the reasons for saying they are one are not convincing, they also aren't.
    • A character is not an expy only sometimes but not other times. They either are, completely, or they aren't, completely.

  • "Deliberate": Done with intent.
    • The resemblance is not accidental or coincidental. (For instance, being played by the same voice actor/actress is not sufficient to make an expy. Neither is a similar art style when they're both drawn by the same artist.)
    • Word of God helps a lot with this point, but if the other points are present strongly enough, Word of God is not absolutely required.

  • "Copy": A duplicate, an item made in imitation of another one.
    • The expy came after the character they're an expy of. If they both were created at about the same time, it probably isn't an expy.
    • The older character is never the expy, even if the other, later character is better known.
    • Superficial traits (like a hairstyle, choice in clothing, preferred fighting method) are not sufficient to make an expy; the copy needs to also fill the same role in the work and serve the same purpose within the story.
    • Major traits or characteristics being very different between the two characters is enough to make a character not an expy (for instance, the original is a demure Girl Next Door, the proposed Expy is a FemmeFatale — not an expy)

  • "Another": One other. Note the singular. It doesn't say "several". If the proposed expy combines traits, characteristics, or features of two or more other characters, they are not an expy of any of them.

If an entry fails to meet even one of those criteria, it is not an expy and should be removed.. Actual expies are nowhere near as common as many editors think.

If you want to link to this post in your edit reason, please do.

Here's the link to copy and paste: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13983140170A37263400&page=1#5

edited 27th Mar '15 6:53:01 AM by Madrugada

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#951: May 1st 2023 at 4:17:22 PM

I see. So, do you think we should remove the Kira example altogether, citing this thread?

Edited by gjjones on May 1st 2023 at 6:20:23 AM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
harotype Since: Aug, 2012
#952: May 1st 2023 at 4:45:26 PM

There is also nothing in here saying Word of God is required, but you removed all other CE Expy entries stating that it had to be explicit from Sunrise.

The entry was originally Foil, I think, which is why it's written to highlight the major contrasts between Kira and Amuro. Rather than delete useful information, isn't there a better trope?

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#953: May 1st 2023 at 4:52:06 PM

Of course, there's a note on the Expy page which says:

Remember that an Expy must be a clearly deliberate reference on the part of the author; superficial or random coincidental similarities (even very striking ones) do not qualify, so if you aren't certain, they probably are not an Expy. Because many character archetypes and tropes that compose characters are universal, it is easy for readers to fall into thinking that a particular character in the same general archetype resembles someone from their favorite show or novel, especially when Small Reference Pools lead readers to overestimate the cultural impact of their favorite characters.

There's also a Foil clean-up thread here.

Edited by gjjones on May 1st 2023 at 12:10:23 PM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#954: May 1st 2023 at 4:57:09 PM

[up][up]Foil feels more continuity-dependent than Contrasting Sequel Main Character, honestly. I've seen the latter (and its relatives) mentioned in relation to other non-linear/Thematic Series.

harotype Since: Aug, 2012
#955: May 1st 2023 at 4:57:38 PM

There is also nothing in Contrasting Sequel Main Character that says the "sequel"/later installment needs to be in the same timeline. All Gundam series are obviously part of the same artistic franchise and borrow heavily from earlier installments.

Rather than ignoring the way jetrip incorrectly moved it to Expy, or deleting it, I think it should just be moved back.

crystalevo Since: Apr, 2023
#956: May 1st 2023 at 5:09:21 PM

Yeah, Gundam's always been extremely direct on how much the franchise loves reusing character archetypes, especially ones modeled on the original casts. Kira and Shinn are also extremely obviously modeled on Amuro and Kamille down to their political affiliations. So my votes on calling it Contrasting Sequel Main Character.

Edited by crystalevo on May 1st 2023 at 5:14:14 AM

AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#957: May 8th 2023 at 4:45:35 PM

Cat Villianess has been adding mentions of Expy on Characters.Honkai Star Rail since many of the characters are inspired by previous miHoYo games like Honkai Impact 3rd and Genshin Impact. Last I recall, Mythology Gag already covers that bout since the characters in HSR are their own iterations.

Additionally, some of the added entries are just lazily pointing out the resemblance to a previous miHoYo character (as in, "Expy: Of [x] from [previous work].", nothing else).

Edited by AnoBakaDesu on May 8th 2023 at 8:11:59 AM

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#958: May 10th 2023 at 5:57:30 PM

[up]I believe the characters from other Honkai games might count as Suspiciously Similar Substitute since they're from the same series; Expy requires the characters to be from different franchises.

AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#959: May 19th 2023 at 10:41:45 PM

My gripe with Expy mentions being added to characters that reference previous miHoYo entries aside, this one was added to Sampo's sheet by ~spoonofevil:

* Expy: Of Joseph Joestar, since they're both handsome Loveable Rogues who at first seem like nothing but Dirty Cowards, but are far more intelligent than people give them credit for.

This is fan conjecture. Sampo's role in the Jarilo-VI arc is nothing like Joseph Joestar's. Sure, he's quirky and no one takes him seriously, but that character archetype is definitely not tied to what spoonofevil makes Sampo out to be.

Edited by AnoBakaDesu on May 19th 2023 at 1:47:45 PM

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#960: May 20th 2023 at 4:59:55 AM

This is from Virtuous Character Copy:

I haven't watched this show, so I don't know how similar these characters are to the originals. However, based off of the descriptions, I don't know if I would say these characters are more virtuous. Regarding the first two, both of the original characters were clearly heroes who just had flaws. The third example doesn't sound that virtuous. They're a villain who still wants to take over the world.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#961: May 20th 2023 at 8:17:28 AM

[up][up] That one definitely reads as fan association, which is misuse.

[up] I don't know the work either, but I agree that the first two don't sound like virtue upgrades, they just sound like they're handling flaws differently. The third one has two obvious problems: the entry comes across as only making an association based on similar appearances (standard expy misuse) and comparing effectiveness as a villain, which also sounds like expy misuse.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 20th 2023 at 4:22:53 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#962: May 20th 2023 at 8:47:36 AM

[up](x3) I agree that's fan association. I also feel it should be removed because of that and what else you said.

[up][up]At best, they lack context imo.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#963: May 20th 2023 at 8:58:06 PM

The page for Grossology says it's based on novels, which may predate Kim Possible and just happen to use similar tropes, but IDK either enough to judge.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#964: May 22nd 2023 at 5:27:39 PM

Can someone give me a rundown of what was agreed on this discussion tab since I can't see it? Now there's a conflict between Expy and Company Cross-References for the Honkai: Star Rail character pages.

Edited by AnoBakaDesu on May 22nd 2023 at 8:27:55 AM

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#965: May 22nd 2023 at 5:35:15 PM

[up] Why can't you see it? Are you suspended from the discussion tab, or is it just a weird glitch?

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#966: May 22nd 2023 at 7:06:49 PM

[up] Yes, I am suspended from the editing side. But that's beside the point: ~Dante Vin and a couple of other tropers seem to try coming up with an Expy cleanup of their own without referring to this thread first.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#967: May 22nd 2023 at 9:20:21 PM

The argument is if Honkai: Star Rail characters are Expy, Mythology Gag, Alternate Self, Company Cross-References, or Internal Homage since they are counterparts to Honkai Impact 3rd characters. So for now it settled on Internal Homage for March and insecure Expy for few others.

Though, if edit banned can't see discussion pages it's probably intentional.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#968: May 23rd 2023 at 4:12:10 AM

Found these at various character pages for Ys:

Characters.Ys Memories Of Celceta (Duren)

  • Expy: Of Dogi in Memories of Celceta - a male Close-Range Combatant who provides the most exposition for the party.
    I'm unsure as I haven't played any games that have Dogi is a party member, but if it is true, Duren would probs fit under Expy Coexistence since they both appear in the game series and the series has a connecting narrative.

Characters.Ys Seven (Aisha)

  • Expy: Bow-wielding rebellious princess-in-disguise, with water/ice element and tsundere tendencies? Sounds a lot like Marle.
    I'm not too familiar with Chrono Trigger's characters on a deep level, but this seems like a stretch

Characters.Ys (Ys Origin / Yunica Tovah)

  • Expy:

    The first one doesn't explain other traits she shares with Estelle while the second one I'm very unsure of because Ys Origin is Distant Prequel to the main Ys games and Expies are based on characters from another series.

Characters.Ys VIII Lacrimosa Of Dana (Party Members / Ricotta)

  • Expy: Of Terra from Ys V: Lost Kefin, Kingdom of Sand and Calilica from Ys: Memories of Celceta - both characters are young girls whom Adol meets in his latest adventure. Like Terra, Ricotta has a Precocious Crush for him as hinted at in her max approval event, while she functions as the Token Mini-Moe Pint-Sized Powerhouse member of the party in Ys VIII similar to how Calilica is for Memories of Celceta.

    Again, probably an example of Expy Coexistence due to Ys's connected narrative.

Characters.Ys IX Monstrum Nox (Aprilis)

  • Expy: Of Jeanne Alter, all the way down to being a clone of a Jeanne archetype and an obsessive magician wanting to and able to bring her back.
    I'm not familiar with much of the story of FGO Jeanne so this feels like a stretch to me.

Any opinions?

Edited by Ayumi-chan on May 23rd 2023 at 7:55:48 PM

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#969: May 23rd 2023 at 8:43:33 AM

[up][up] What Amon said is actually why I asked, Ano. I wasn't sure if I was allowed to tell you what happened on the discussion tab or if that would constitute meatpuppeting.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#970: May 23rd 2023 at 2:50:57 PM

[up] Meatpuppeting would be making edits on my behalf. Discussion tabs aren't edits, otherwise I wouldn't even be on this forum.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#971: May 23rd 2023 at 2:55:07 PM

[up] Got it. I had assumed summarizing discussion tab activity to someone who can't view it constituted meatpuppeting—didn't realize it was specifically editing.

Just to be absolutely, positively safe, can a mod verify this?

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#972: May 23rd 2023 at 5:05:27 PM

Bumping [up][up][up][up]

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#973: May 23rd 2023 at 8:33:19 PM

[up]I agree that Duren doesn't count since Expies have to be from different franchises. I agree that Party Members/Ricotta are also misuse since a character cannot be an Expy of more than one character. As for Ys Origin/Yunica Tovah, the bullet reads closer to Suspiciously Similar Substitute (if anything) to me since they're from the same series.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on May 23rd 2023 at 11:28:15 AM

Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#974: May 23rd 2023 at 10:19:58 PM

Like I said, they probably fit more under Expy Coexistence since Ys is a continuous narrative.

What about the other ones?

Edited by Ayumi-chan on May 24th 2023 at 1:20:17 AM

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
DanteVin The Time Has Come from Somewhere Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
#975: May 24th 2023 at 3:53:59 AM

Re: Honkai: Star Rail' because I got tagged here suddenly.

I brought it up in the game's own discussion tab because it's ideally tackled by those who are more familiar with the Honkai franchise... Since the franchise's company has a record of reusing character designs and tropes, recasting the same voice actors for "lookalike" or "similar characters, and they also introduced the concept of alternate selves and connecting multiple worlds between their games

Originally, it did not start off as an Expy clean-up/move effort, which is why I haven't brought it here, yet (Yes, I was also planning to take doubtful Expy examples here at a later time). It was meant to deal with edits constantly moving Mythology Gag and Company Cross-References examples. Mind you, some other tropers not involved in the discussion page yet have done those edits... which is why I aimed to start a discussion page to minimize potential edit wars and some confusion.

Again, several tropers have moved examples to the Expy trope (when they were originally MG and CCR). One of the edits I linked in the discussion page was done by @Cat Villianess... And that's where the discussion started.

So far, what was agreed upon was that if the character is so like another singular character from Genshin Impact (the other game from the same company, miHoYo), the likely option is to move them to Expy, not Company Cross-References... because using the latter trope might make it a misuse.

The discussion between me and 2 other tropers got so long that it also covered possibly using Alternate Self instead of Expy for the obvious Honkai look-alikes and counterparts, and cleaning up misuse of Mythology Gag (or moving the latter's examples to better or more specific tropes).

@Ano Baka Desu, I've also seen you around Honkai pages, so I assume you're also familiar with that franchise as well, it might've been best if we have more familiar with Honkai to join in the discussion.

Edited by DanteVin on May 24th 2023 at 7:27:33 PM

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