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Expy Cleanup Thread

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An expy is an unambiguous and deliberate copy of another, older character."

Note the word "another" and the words "unambiguous", "deliberate", and "copy". Those are the important words.

Here's your checklist:

  • "Unambiguous": There is no doubt, there is no room for arguing that they aren't.
    • If a plausible or convincing argument can be made that they aren't an expy, they aren't.
    • If the reasons for saying they are one are not convincing, they also aren't.
    • A character is not an expy only sometimes but not other times. They either are, completely, or they aren't, completely.

  • "Deliberate": Done with intent.
    • The resemblance is not accidental or coincidental. (For instance, being played by the same voice actor/actress is not sufficient to make an expy. Neither is a similar art style when they're both drawn by the same artist.)
    • Word of God helps a lot with this point, but if the other points are present strongly enough, Word of God is not absolutely required.

  • "Copy": A duplicate, an item made in imitation of another one.
    • The expy came after the character they're an expy of. If they both were created at about the same time, it probably isn't an expy.
    • The older character is never the expy, even if the other, later character is better known.
    • Superficial traits (like a hairstyle, choice in clothing, preferred fighting method) are not sufficient to make an expy; the copy needs to also fill the same role in the work and serve the same purpose within the story.
    • Major traits or characteristics being very different between the two characters is enough to make a character not an expy (for instance, the original is a demure Girl Next Door, the proposed Expy is a FemmeFatale — not an expy)

  • "Another": One other. Note the singular. It doesn't say "several". If the proposed expy combines traits, characteristics, or features of two or more other characters, they are not an expy of any of them.

If an entry fails to meet even one of those criteria, it is not an expy and should be removed.. Actual expies are nowhere near as common as many editors think.

If you want to link to this post in your edit reason, please do.

Here's the link to copy and paste: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13983140170A37263400&page=1#5

edited 27th Mar '15 6:53:01 AM by Madrugada

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#901: Oct 23rd 2022 at 10:26:33 PM

There is a difference between 'there was a reference to this thing' and 'This is a thing the creator of the show has seen' and 'This is a show that the creator of this show helped work on and references regularly'.

With Stan I agree it's not enough, but with Ford I would say there is enough proof there in addition to there being reason for the parralels to be deliberate.

Bow to the Prototype
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#902: Oct 23rd 2022 at 10:49:52 PM

[up] Even then, I have my reasons to doubt given the confirmation that Philip is the younger brother rather than the older brother. And he isn't the one drawn to the wonders of the Boiling Isles, Caleb is. Additionally, the Collector was only created when word got out that Season 3 has been shrunk into three episodes, so we can't be certain just how much of Philip/Belos was based on Ford and how much was it just coincidence.

This requires Word of God or at least the whole development of Emperor Belos.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#903: Oct 23rd 2022 at 10:59:33 PM

I don't really agree

Also.....Ford was not 'Drawn' to the world he got trapped in, he fell in there as a result of accident on Stan's part.

The alliance with an otherworldly chaos god thing also is not the only comparison, it's just one the ones that help solidify it. The others were being the author of the journal that the dorky protagonist discovers, being a human explorer from another world trapped in this one.

We have evidence for him being inspired by Ford (but with the 'Corrupted' angle obviously), reason to believe it's deliberate as said above.

I am personally with Austin on it being more clear with Ford then the others.

Edited by Snoketrope on Oct 23rd 2022 at 11:06:55 AM

Bow to the Prototype
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#904: Oct 24th 2022 at 1:49:49 AM

I say just cut the dang entry for now, the Stan connection's too tenuous to keep anyway.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#905: Oct 24th 2022 at 5:42:08 AM

This is from Ciaran's folder from Derry Girls:

  • Expy: Of Gerry himself, in both his relationship with Sarah and Joe's disdain for him.

Two things. First, these are two characters from the same series. Second, I don't think these characters are all that similar. Ciaran's relationships with Sarah and Joe parallel Gerry's relationships with Mary and Joe, but that's about it.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#906: Oct 24th 2022 at 6:55:04 AM

[up] Wouldn't it more fit in Foil then?

I'd say cut that for sure or describe it in more detail for Foil so it's not a ZCE.

Edited by ReynTime250 on Oct 24th 2022 at 7:08:48 PM

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#907: Oct 24th 2022 at 9:27:56 AM

[up]That sounds more fitting.

underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#908: Oct 30th 2022 at 2:29:01 PM

Can an entire species/political system count as an Expy under our rules?

Safehold has these: (note, there is a third level-two bullet about a specific character, so excuse the first bit of indentation)

  • The entire planet of Safehold is one for the planet Pardal from the third book of Weber's Empire from the Ashes series, written 11 years earlier.
    • A technophobic theocracy that rules over many small, divided kingdoms? Check. Engineered to hide from a threat which nearly wiped out humanity? Check. Treats its precursors as angels or demons? Check. Holds itself together by a communication advantage via semaphore towers, acting as the world's creditor with money from tithes, and the threat of brutal inquisitions & purges? Check. A revolt initiated by a kingdom the church hierarchy is already wary of because of its physical distance from the church capital and reputation for (relative) inventiveness? Check. Inability to use advanced technology to penetrate said church capital because it contains advanced sensors? Check. The highest members of the church hierarchy are decadent and corrupt? Check. Five-day weeks called "five-days"? Check.
    • It looks like Weber wrote Safehold to further explore the concept behind Pardal and find out how such a world would really work. Or at least try it again on a bigger scale and get into more detail.
  • The Gbaba are also an Expy for the Achuultani (also from Empire from the Ashes), in that they are a xenocidal alien race who periodically wipe out all other sentient life they can find. Weber has said he wrote the aforementioned book mostly because he didn't have time to make it a full series back then. (Weber has a bit of a problem with juggling too many epic series at once.)

Even if these can be sustained on description and similarity, the relationship is backwards. Pardal was tacked onto Empire from the Ashes because Weber looked at his existing commitments and thought "I'll never get a chance to write Safehold."

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#909: Oct 30th 2022 at 2:56:20 PM

Pretty sure Expy is for characters only. Otherwise it might be something like Shout-Out.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#910: Nov 6th 2022 at 8:48:09 AM

This is from Film.The Frighteners:

  • Expy:
    • Bartlett and Patricia of Charles Starkweather and Carli Ann Fugate. A clear case of Expy Coexistence since Bartlett mentions Starkweather several times and seems the most proud of beating his bodycount.
    • Less directly, Magda can be seen as a variation of J. Jonah Jameson, considering that she condemns Frank's actions even before he starts trying to be a better person.

I wonder if they are valid examples and if not, should we remove them?

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#911: Nov 9th 2022 at 12:16:12 PM

[up]I'd hide the first because it reads as low-context to me. The second is a violation of Administrivia.Examples Are Not Arguable and, since Expies have to be definite, I feel it should be cut.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#912: Nov 10th 2022 at 6:20:17 AM

Do any of these examples from WebOriginal.Hamsters Paradise count as genuine expies instead of "relatively common archtypes in spec-evo"?

  • Expy: The arboreal cat-like treegers, and their descendant the tigerilla, are expies of the striger from After Man: A Zoology of the Future.
    • The giant rabbit-like rabbeasts, deer-like bambunnies and wolf-like predatory scabbers of Isla Centralis in the Glaciocene also resemble the predator rats and the rabbucks from the same book.
    • The armored rattiles known as shingles resemble the rattleback from The Future is Wild.
      • The shrish are similar to the Silverswimmers of FIW, being crustacean fish-analogues.
      • The original sketches depict the omegaham as the last of the hamsters, somewhat similar to the Poggle.
      • Some of the ratbats are outright compared to the deathgleaner.
      • The silver soarer is very similar to the great blue windrunner, also being an alpine flyer with adaptations against UV radiation.
      • Some of the freshwater skwoids of the middle Temperocene are an obvious allusion to the swampus, especially the squoads who have become outright amphibious.
    • For that matter the ratbats may be an allusion to King Kong (2005)'s flying rodents.
    • The rhinocheirids could be one for the tentacle birds of Serina, given that they are a lineage of theropod-like animals with dexterous facial appendages and reduced forelimbs. One carnivorous species in the early Temperocene even goes on to resemble the grapplers thanks to its short, robust tentacles used for hunting. They also bear a strong resemblance to the snouters from The Snouters: Form and Life of the Rhinogrades do to starting out as a small mammals living on an Archipelago with bizarre and complex noses.
    • The thorhorns, giant elephant-sized herbivores descended from the deer-like ungulopes, closely echo the Gigantelopes from After Man.
    • The tundra harmsters, who punished their captured rival harmster species by breeding them into non-sapient animals that they use like dogs and oxen, echo the Qu from All Tomorrows who did the same to the descendants of humans (albeit to a much greater extent).

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#913: Nov 13th 2022 at 4:32:33 AM

All of them are written as misuse.

  • The very first example (which should have been placed in a bullet point like the rest) doesn't explain how it's an expy or how it's confirmed to be an expy. It's hard to know if this is an example or misuse as a result. It's ZCE.
  • Fans spotting a "resemblance" is the standard misuse of the trope.
  • Same issue.
    • 3rd bullet point: This needs elaboration. If an outright comparison is made then this could be an example, as long as the ratbats and deathgleaners are from different works. If they're in the same work, the trope is not in play.
    • 5th bullet point: Does "obvious allusion" mean confirmed or YMMV? If it's audience assumption, then it's standard misuse again. One man's "obvious allusion" is another man's Fan Myopia.
  • Ratbats again, with a different allusion, this time. The entry is standard misuse coupled with Examples Are Not Arguable language. It's also a sign that the 3rd sub-bullet above is very likely to be misuse as well.
  • "may be" is the standard misuse of the trope (fans identifying a resemblance instead of the resemblance being confirmed to be deliberate).
  • "could be" is the standard misuse of the trope.
  • "echo" is the standard misuse of the trope.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 13th 2022 at 4:39:01 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Nouct over the front from an east coast Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
over the front
#914: Nov 24th 2022 at 7:19:01 PM

Just added to Characters.Arknights Vanguards N To Z by DR 34 DN 0 UGHT

  • Expy: She's a retired former assassin for the Mafia, who everyone regards with a mixture of awe, fear, and respect. Most Mafia members are scared of her or remark on her past accomplishments, and she's implied to have killed countless people in Siracusa before getting out. One of her alternate skins is even her wearing a badass suit. Flip her gender, give her a dog, and Texas would be John Wick.
    • Also has a lot in common with Kazuma Kiryu, being a stoic, legendary figure in the world of organized crime with a penchant for smoking, to say nothing of her rival in Lappland being an expy herself to Goro Majima. Even her current job as the driver for Penguin Logistics is evocative of Kiryu's time as a taxi driver.

I think there being two entries with several overlapping points with neither actually stating anything truly specific just means that all three works are drawing on the same pool of tropes for crime dramas (especially as the first comparison has to specifically add a condition that hasn't happened yet for the character being claimed as an expy in order to qualify when the character in question does not own a pet at all), but I'd like to double check here to see if there are similar feelings.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#915: Dec 24th 2022 at 8:43:56 AM

Posting this here since I'm not sure where else this would go, but there currently is a draft in the TLP for a new expy trope that I figured many here would be interested in / would want to be aware of in case it launches

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#916: Jan 13th 2023 at 7:32:44 PM

At Characters.Fire Emblem On Forums Wonderful Blessing:

  1. Expy: Serena is this to Aqua from Kono Suba.
  2. Expy: She's essentially Raphtalia if instead of Naofumi, her master was Kazuma.
  3. Expy: Asuna is intentionally this for, well, Asuna Yuuki. Her heavy resemblance to the fictional Asuna has caused her many, many problems.
  4. Expy: Marcia is Flora if Flora was a massive Cloud Cuckoo Lander who was obsessed with setting herself on fire, completely delusional and also with a massive Berserk Button of messing with her master.
  5. Expy: Her appearance, personality and profession is similar to Wiz, another kind-hearted, meek brown-haired merchant, even down to their skill with magic. Right down to both Wiz and Milly being generals for the villain.
  6. Expy: Of the Demon Queen from Maoyu, as a red-headed queen of the demons who sought peace between mortals and demons alike. Unlike the Demon Queen, however, she was slain before she could achieve her goals, but Serena successfully resurrects her.
  7. Expy: Elements of Daisaku Kuze can be found in his character, such as his choice of weapon, being an older rival to one of the younger protagonists and being ungodly stubborn. He even shares Kuze's theme.
  8. Expy: Her role as the god of order, money and contracts, chosen weapon, appearance and personality is reminiscent of Zhongli.
  9. Expy: Like Asuna, Kazuto is this to a Sword Art Online character, in his case being Kirito. His personality is somewhat based on the abridged version of Kirito.
  10. Expy: Of Kazuma from Kono Suba. Kazuto even snarks at him about it.
  11. Expy: Miria is one of both Darkness and Leafa, while Fantine is one of Annette and Megumin.
  12. Expy: Of Rem. A deliberate example as it's implied she wished herself into this form.
  13. Expy: Of Senator Armstrong.
  14. Expy: Marin and Sirocco are this of Mistral and Sundowner respectively.
  15. Expy: Asahi is one of Sinon from Sword Art Online in a similar way to Asuna, much to her chagrin.
  16. Expy: Bears more than a passing physical resemblance to Isara from Valkyria Chronicles, as well as sharing several character elements with her (mechanical expertise, dreams of building a plane to fly with, skilled at building weapons).
  17. Expy: Of the titular gang from The Warriors. It's even in the name.
  18. Expy Of Sailor Jupiter in appearance. In setting, it's implied she deliberately wished herself this way.

Do any of these have sufficient context?

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#917: Jan 14th 2023 at 4:27:25 AM

[up]I feel almost all of them are zero-context.

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#918: Jan 17th 2023 at 4:12:36 PM

This was just added to Film.Avatar The Way Of Water:

  • Expy: General Frances Ardmore is pretty much just a gender-flipped copy of Quaritch from the first film. Her personality and mannerisms are almost identical. The film itself leans into it with a scene of her casually and callously drinking from a mug of coffee while plotting the heroes' demise, in a very clear throw-back to when Quaritch did the same thing in the previous movie.

Does this entry count?

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#919: Jan 17th 2023 at 8:32:58 PM

[up]That sounds more like Distaff Counterpart to me since they're from the same franchise.

Malady (X-Troper)
#920: Jan 25th 2023 at 8:34:58 AM

Characters.Murder By Numbers 2020: I guess this is a Shout-Out, or something instead, since the narrative role totally doesn't seem to match. Mob boss vs. this loan shark.

  • Expy: According to the artbook, he's visually designed to be similar to Goro Majima from the Yakuza games.
    Ed Fear: For some reason, Goro Majima (from the Yakuza series) was a big inspiration for me here visually. This was a guy who had come into money later in life and wanted to be 'classy' without knowing what classy actually is. Hence the expensive (but tasteless) jacket.

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
GoldenCityBird from the UK Since: Oct, 2018
#921: Jan 25th 2023 at 10:05:34 AM

Yeah, Goro and Crispin have pretty much nothing in common.

Edited by GoldenCityBird on Jan 25th 2023 at 6:05:51 PM

TRS Wick Cleaning
MsOranjeDiscoDancer 2much2furious from the Saja Boys' last performance! Since: Aug, 2022 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
2much2furious
#922: Mar 7th 2023 at 11:02:42 AM

hello

i want to clarify if an expy is invalid if it is named for a monster in mythology but shares a background with that is not a part of the original mythology

for context:

rakshasa are man-eating demons from hindu mythology

Dungeons and Dragons makes them tiger-headed evil magician spirits who attack and corrupt the Material Plane (which is a DND concept) and with a detailed society and hierarchy, which afaik are not part of the original hindu mythology

Pathfinder is a fork of Dungeons and Dragons and had writers and directors from Dungeons and Dragons. among other things they brought over rakshasa who are still tiger-headed evil magician spirits who attack and corrupt their version of the Material Plane with a few additions like shapeshifting and a Red Right Hand based on the one that DND gave (inverted palms)

an editor removed it on grounds that the Pathfinder example is invalid because they came from mythology but given that Pathfinder is a fork of Dungeons and Dragons and uses specific factors that are not in the original mythology i want a second opinion.

thanks

Edited by MsOranjeDiscoDancer on Mar 7th 2023 at 1:14:50 AM

i may be dead inside but at least i have Mystery :,)
HTD Since: Mar, 2013
#923: Mar 7th 2023 at 7:12:44 PM

For the record:

  • The Material Plane is simply what D&D and PF refers to the mortal world. The name originated from D&D but the concept is far more generic than that.
  • Changing shapes is a thing that the original rakshasas from mythology can already do.
  • Among the various rakshasa species in D&D, only one of them (the 'common' rakshasa) is covered in the OGL and thus can be used legally in other TTRPG publications; the others (described on Dungeons & Dragons Fiends) cannot since they are Wizards of the Coast's Product Identity. As a result, the only rakshasa species shared by both games is the common one; rakshasas in Pathfinder are much more diverse than just animal-headed humanoids (look at the illustrations on Pathfinder Fiends for more details).

MsOranjeDiscoDancer 2much2furious from the Saja Boys' last performance! Since: Aug, 2022 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
2much2furious
#924: Mar 8th 2023 at 12:24:37 PM

  • that rakshasa in DND and PF tend to specifically attack the Material Plane to corrupt mortals feels more like an original addition especially since the original mythology is more about fighting gods and eating people

  • in addition there is a hierarchy, society, etc detailed in Pathfinder that is similar to DND's own rakshasa hierarchy. it does not resemble the one in the original myth.

  • also in the original myth rakshasa are not magician-spirits

  • they are also classified as Fiends in both DND and PF. that is a very specific classification of monster and DND and PF's Fiends have the same roles and similar lore

  • Pathfinder still makes it so that most Rakshasa appear as tiger-headed humanoids by default, which as far as i know are not in the original mythology. DND Rakshasa were almost always tiger-headed humanoids as well

  • Pathfinder rakshasa also have the 'inverted hands' thing from DND. that also isnt in the original myths

  • sure but the ' tiger-head rakshasa is still the most common depiction of PF rakshasa and the lore specifically says that the tiger-heads are the default form for rakshasa, shapeshifting or no. IP/OGL or not PF still shares plenty of DNA with DND

Edited by MsOranjeDiscoDancer on Mar 8th 2023 at 1:12:18 AM

i may be dead inside but at least i have Mystery :,)
HTD Since: Mar, 2013
#925: Mar 8th 2023 at 6:26:48 PM

  • In-game classification doesn't really matter since Pathfinder 1E was designed to be backwards-compatible with D&D 3E.
  • Where has it been said that most PF rakshasas are tiger-headed? This is what the 2E Bestiary says about the common raja rakshasa (and that's before we get started on the nine other rakshasa species, whose resemblance to D&D rakshasas is very superficial):
    Raja's heads often resemble those of cats or snakes, but they can also be similar to apes, jackals, vultures, elephants, mantises, lizards, rhinos, boars, and more are possible.
  • I also haven't found anything that describes PF rakshasas as 'magician' spirits (at least not any moreso than the standard outsider).

The only rakshasa species that was actually brought over from D&D is the common/raja rakshasa (via the OGL), which doesn't even really qualify as an expy (in the same way that characters in adaptations are not expies of their original versions); the other species are either based directly on mythology or original Paizo creations. You seem to be operating under the assumption that the people at Paizo are still trying to create a D&D clone, which was only true for the early years, and hasn't been the case for a long while (search for James Jacobs' posts on the Paizo messageboards for more details).


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