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Duplicate Trope: The Nameless

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Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Feb 20th 2014 at 11:37:21 AM

This is entirely my fault, as I made The Nameless, but it turns out it's a Duplicate of No Need for Names (which was so poorly wicked I had never heard of it). At their base, they're "A character has no name," though No Need for Names is a slightly more positive spin on it, as it's basically "The Nameless and proud of it." Either way, they're close enough to each other that they should be merged.

I'm not sure which page is better. The Nameless has more wicks, No Need for Names has more inbounds.

One issue with The Nameless is that it still gets used as a synonym for No Name Given. No Need for Names is certainly clearer and less likely to be misused... but it's also more likely to be underused.

Thoughts?

Stratadrake Dragon Writer
Dragon Writer
Feb 21st 2014 at 8:22:13 AM

As much as I don't like many tropes starting with a "the", I think The Nameless is the best name of the three.

And No Name Given is for characters who presumably have a name but the audience is never informed of it (like The Doctor). Which means the page image isn't a good one as it's depicting something more like Nominal Importance.

edited 21st Feb '14 8:24:57 AM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Feb 21st 2014 at 8:29:06 AM

No Need for Names to me sounds like it makes a point about the name being unnecessary, though.

Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Feb 21st 2014 at 8:57:17 AM

[up][up] Yeah, No Name Given is clearly distinct from the other two. However, The Nameless was, at some point in time, a redirect to No Name Given so some people still use it as such.

Feb 21st 2014 at 1:20:04 PM

Well, let's break these down by definition.

Personally I'm inclined to merge No Need for Names into The Nameless: I agree with it being a better name.

Willbyr Anime-ted from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Mar 21st 2014 at 11:38:44 AM

  • No Need for Names: A character explicitly in the work doesn't see a reason for names. They may be given a name by other characters anyway.

Example: Hudson in Gargoyles states that he doesn't need a name because the clouds don't have names, nor does the river. He's then informed that the river's name is Hudson so he decides "Then I will be Hudson, like the river."

  • The Nameless: A character has lost or forgotten their name.

Example: In his backstory, Hancock lost his memory and with it, his name. He eventually adopted the name "Hancock" after someone asked for his signature (his "John Hancock") and assumed it was his name.

These are two distinct items. One is a character reaction. One sometimes that's experienced when viewing the work.

edited 21st Mar '14 11:48:57 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Mar 21st 2014 at 11:45:58 AM

Ah, so it is.

The Nameless: A character doesn't have a name because it's been forgotten or lost, or destroyed and is generally referred to as some variation of Nameless or sometimes takes on the name of another.

If you look at the examples on The Nameless and No Need for Names you'll see that the attitude about names is different. The Nameless has a forgotten history. No Need for Names is an attitude where the character just doesn't see the point of them.

edited 21st Mar '14 11:48:06 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Mar 21st 2014 at 11:49:38 AM

I think ideally what we want is:

  • The Nameless: Supertrope for all characters who don't have a name explicitly.
  • No Need for Names: Subtrope for characters who don't see the point of names.
  • Lost Name (Actual name TBD): Subtrope for a character has lost or forgotten their original name for some reason.

edited 21st Mar '14 11:53:32 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Mar 21st 2014 at 12:03:33 PM

I suggest The Nameless be an index-only supertrope, because its such a snappy and easy to remember title that tropers are likely to wick it when they mean a subtrope.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Mar 21st 2014 at 2:52:20 PM

I like Shima and samaritan's ideas, combined.

I see a real difference between "Has lost or forgotten their name", "has a name but it's never revealed or used", and "doesn't see any reason to have a name" in what they generally say about the character.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Mar 21st 2014 at 4:49:15 PM

We can probably even add in other tropes as subtropes like Everyone Calls Him "Barkeep".

edited 21st Mar '14 4:50:53 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Mar 21st 2014 at 4:55:01 PM

Sure. I just wanted it as part of the definition that The Nameless had no examples ("all examples go into one of the following subtropes").

I usually don't advocate that, but this time I think the name is too easy to misuse as one of the subtropes, whereas it is a set of specific Naming Conventions.

edited 21st Mar '14 4:56:13 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Mar 21st 2014 at 5:43:17 PM

That's completely fair. Example-less supertrope isn't a bad thing.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Mar 21st 2014 at 6:00:12 PM

This is a major enough change, we should probably do a crowner, single prop okay?

"Change The Nameless to an exampleless supertrope about not having a personal name"

The thread has been around for a month, and got clocked, so I don't think we'll see many competing suggestions.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Mar 21st 2014 at 6:57:38 PM

Sounds like a plan.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Mar 22nd 2014 at 12:27:37 AM

The Nameless even as-is is about a lack of name. So it should be a supertrope, and thusly I voted that option up.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jun 2nd 2014 at 4:49:28 AM

Bumping for votes; "Change The Nameless to an exampleless supertrope about not having a personal name. And move the current definition about having lost or forgotten your name to a new trope." is at 13-0 yea/nay now.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jun 5th 2014 at 4:12:52 PM

Calling crowner at 16 to 0.

edited 5th Jun '14 6:49:18 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DAN004 Chair Man from The 0th Dimension
Chair Man
Dec 29th 2014 at 12:58:01 PM

What to be done now?

MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Dec 29th 2014 at 12:59:53 PM

We need to find descriptions for each trope, and some suggestions for a new name.

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Jan 7th 2015 at 11:18:45 AM

Supertrope: The Nameless, Playing With Nominal Importance.

Here's a start.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Single Proposition: The Nameless
21st Mar '14 8:11:27 PM
Vote up for yes, down for no.
At issue:
The Nameless is a duplicate trope.

Total posts: 89
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