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Okay, every topic that has even remotely to do with the middle east keeps getting more general news put into it which removes focus from the original topic.

As such, I'm creating this thread as a general middle east and north africa topic. That means anything to do with the Arab Spring, Israel or Palestine should be kept to those threads and anything to do with more generic news (for example, new Saudi regulations on the number of foreign workers or the Lebanese elections next year, etc.) should be posted here.

I hope the mods will find this a clear enough statement of intent to open the thread.

Mod edit: The Israel and Palestine thread has been locked since October 2023. Discussion about Palestine and/or Israel remains off-topic for this thread. This also bans discussion of any military conflict, terrorism or extrajudicial actions involving one of them and a third country (e.g. Israel's air strikes in Yemen).

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 28th 2024 at 12:26:59 PM

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1501: Feb 2nd 2019 at 11:48:10 PM

[up] Pffftttt, why would I think that escaping from authoritarian dictatorship to another one that is far more competent in its repression of dissidents would be anything but a horrificially bad idea? Besides, even if that wasn't a problem, there's the "simple" deal-break that is the Great Firewall of China. I have no intention of severely limiting my ability to freely browse the Internet (including, yes, porn of all sorts), thank you very much.

Edited by MarqFJA on Feb 2nd 2019 at 10:48:24 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#1502: Feb 3rd 2019 at 2:30:34 AM

Well, hopefully if a Democrat candidate wins in the 2020 elections this right-wing wave will start to lose its energy.

It started at tge beginning of the decade and peaked in 2016-7, hopefully we're at the end, or the beginnings of it.

Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#1503: Feb 3rd 2019 at 7:11:16 AM

I am insterested in why only now more people are leaving the kingdom, it's not like it wasn't a human rights hellhole before. Is it because the Saudi population is getting better informed about the world, like in the final stages of the Soviet Union?

Life is unfair...
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#1504: Feb 3rd 2019 at 11:16:53 AM

No. More to do with the crown prince defanging the religious police but the families maintaining the repression. The juxtaposition of the two makes it obvious to those who want to leave that even when things change officially they won't change unofficially.

Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#1505: Feb 3rd 2019 at 12:01:27 PM

Could it also be because the state has reduced its' public spending, or more specifically its' attempts to keep its' people quite by providing them with jobs and subsidies. With the low oil price and the prospect of dwindling oil reserves, the crown prince has stated that he wants to modernize the economy, making it more ompetetive and less reliant on oil. Aside from e.g. granting women more liberties, it also means (according to my knowledge, correct me if I am wrong) less public employment and more financial burdens for the people. Before that you could say that the people of Saudi-Arabia left in a very opressive state, but they were at least economically well-off. Now the prospect of just living in an opressive state is probably not so attractive.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1506: Feb 3rd 2019 at 2:00:40 PM

It's actually because the oppression has suddenly lost much of the past subtlety and limited scope, epitomized by the mass arrests a couple of years ago as part of an alleged anti-corruption crackdownnote .

Also, if you read the article that was linked on the previous page, it explains how journalists and dissidents saw their already ongoing persecution by the Sauds abruptly worsen a lot after MSB's ascendancy, which as we all know, culminated in the horrendous murder and corpse-dismembering of Jamal Khashoggi last year and its half-assed cover-up (apparently without knowledge or actual backing from the rest of the dynasty's major power-players).

Edited by MarqFJA on Feb 3rd 2019 at 1:01:20 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#1507: Feb 3rd 2019 at 9:33:30 PM

Honestly I don't think the average Saudi would really be paying attention to what's happening to journalists. The intelligensia, sure. But not the man on the street. I do think his hypocrisy in letting women drive but then arresting the activists for that very thing might be more in line with the idea though.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1508: Feb 4th 2019 at 8:04:03 AM

Word of mouth can go surprisingly fast. It's not like all the relatives of the afflicted journalists would shut up about the regime's misdeeds out of fear of being next on the list, especially if they're already out of the country.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#1509: Feb 5th 2019 at 11:03:21 PM

Ex-NSA operatives reveal how they helped spy on targets for the Arab monarchy — dissidents, rival leaders and journalists.

Two weeks after leaving her position as an intelligence analyst for the U.S. National Security Agency in 2014, Lori Stroud was in the Middle East working as a hacker for an Arab monarchy.

She had joined Project Raven, a clandestine team that included more than a dozen former U.S. intelligence operatives recruited to help the United Arab Emirates engage in surveillance of other governments, militants and human rights activists critical of the monarchy.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1510: Feb 7th 2019 at 7:33:34 AM

... And there are people genuinely trying to defend the NSA as being more good than bad.    Fuck them.   

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#1511: Feb 7th 2019 at 7:34:22 AM

It is, just not for their enemies.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#1512: Feb 7th 2019 at 7:52:06 AM

I guess that depends how you measure good and bad.

They should have sent a poet.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1513: Feb 7th 2019 at 8:14:09 AM

[up][up] Are you actually saying that those Saudi Arabian dissidents who criticized the Saud regime's crimes and undemocratic authoritarianism are enemies of the USA? If so, then fuck off. I'd rather be an enemy of the US than be a servile sycophant of a hypocritical dictatorship that can and will kill me off if I so much as sneeze wrong in their presence.

[up] Blatantly betraying the very principles that one is supposed to defend — in this case advocacy of democracy and justice — for the sake of appeasing an ally of convenience that blatantly rejects those self-same principles is very much horrible enough a sin that it invariably outweighs any amount of good deeds that one could have done.

Edited by MarqFJA on Feb 7th 2019 at 7:15:07 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#1514: Feb 7th 2019 at 8:31:17 AM

[up] I agree that it’s a betrayal of core principles, but as with any organization like this often there’s more nuance than simply good or bad. The CIA propped up brutal dictators and assassinated foriegn nationals, which was bad, but they also assisted in building one of the most peaceful and prosperous eras in human history, which is good. The NSA spies and schemes, which is bad, but also has foiled countless terrorist plots both in the US and elsewhere, which is good.

I’ll also point out that this isn’t something the NSA was in any way in control of. The people in the article are former NSA employees who took positions at a cybersecurity firm contracted by the UAE. That would make them the morally bankrupt ones.

Edited by archonspeaks on Feb 7th 2019 at 8:35:49 AM

They should have sent a poet.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#1516: Feb 7th 2019 at 9:08:30 AM

Well, no, they don’t. Just like how soldiers can choose to join Blackwater after they leave the military, NSA programmers can choose to join DarkMatter, the firm in the article. They’d still be bound by their security clearances if they held them in the first place, but those only prevent you from revealing state secrets or using them for monetary or personal gain.

Note that while government employees may go on to work for unscrupulous private entities they’re in no way shielded from the legal consequences of doing so, and in fact the people mentioned in the article could very well be in some serious legal trouble now that they’ve been exposed.

Edited by archonspeaks on Feb 7th 2019 at 9:08:54 AM

They should have sent a poet.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1517: Feb 7th 2019 at 2:55:37 PM

That undeserved freedom they're getting is bullshit. And the Blackwater analogy is flawed because:

  1. Blackwater is a US-based company, while DarkMatter is an Emirati company. Besides the fact that the likes of Blackwater are always beholden to US law, former intelligence officers should not be allowed to work privately for a company based in foreign country without a thorough vetting process that ensures the company they're joining isn't likely to abuse their knowledge and expertise for decidedly nefarious goals like oppressing its people or persecuting dissidents.

  2. There's a league of difference between retired/discharged soldiers joining a PMC and retired/discharged intelligence officers joining a private intelligence outfit. The former is a blunt implement whose excesses and transgressions cannot be easily concealed, as Blackwater discovered when they pulled their shit in Iraq; the latter, on the other hand, by definition operates in the shadows, and can deal far more long-term damage to democracy and civil freedoms in a society when abused than any but the largest and most comprehensively evil occupying army could do.

Edited by MarqFJA on Feb 7th 2019 at 2:03:17 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#1518: Feb 7th 2019 at 3:54:27 PM

You do realize your logic has one giant glaring hole in it right? Once they leave the US there isn't a lot you can do to stop them from working for whoever they want. Short of them joining a designated terrorist group not even international law can really touch them.

Who watches the watchmen?
eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#1519: Feb 7th 2019 at 4:23:24 PM

Year Before Killing, Saudi Prince Told Aide He Would Use ‘a Bullet’ on Khashoggi.

I swear that every crazy MBS story to come out is like a reminder from the Middle Ages that even the most messed-up democracy is still better than actual monarchy.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#1520: Feb 7th 2019 at 5:17:17 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, it’s exactly like going to work for Blackwater. I suppose if you must have a 100% accurate analogy it would be more like going to work for Aegis or an overseas contracting outfit, but the way it works is exactly the same.

As long as you don’t reveal any state secrets or commit any treason you’re good to go.

They should have sent a poet.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1521: Feb 7th 2019 at 7:47:04 PM

[up][up][up] One, that's more a failing of the bodies charged with drafting international laws — more specifically, that they're effectively beholden to the whims of the UNSC's Permanent 5.

Two... like that has stopped/would stop the likes of the CIA from doing what they want. Hell, the 2003 invasion of Iraq was a flagrant violation of international law on part of the US and the UK, so that's two major powers that are supposed to be the good guys getting away with shitting all over the international law they love to trumpet about protecting whenever it suits them.

[up][up] The Spaniards would take offense to that, given that their king had a crucial role in shutting down the 1981 coup attempt by Francoists in the Civil Guard.

[up] So you are defining "treason" strictly in terms of harming the national interests of one's home country, excluding betrayal of the basic ideals that said country was founded upon (in this case, democracy and civil liberties).

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#1522: Feb 7th 2019 at 7:54:54 PM

[up] Yes, because that’s the exact legal definition of treason.

Like it or not, government agencies have no requirement to make sure their employees go on to find ethical employment. You can leave the military and turn to crime if you’d like, you just have to live with the consequences. These people will have to live with the consequences of their choices, they’re going to be in serious legal trouble if they ever come back home and now that they’re burnt it’s unlikey they’ll be finding gainful employment overseas.

Regulating post-employment behavior is somewhat difficult, and not particularly productive.

As far as international law, I’ll point out that it only goes as far as countries are willing to take it. There’s no monopoly of force at the international level so a lot of it basically works on honor rules. The 2003 invasion of Iraq was bad for a lot of reasons, but since a case could be articulated for it that many governments found compelling international law fell short.

Edited by archonspeaks on Feb 7th 2019 at 7:59:46 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#1523: Feb 7th 2019 at 9:11:16 PM

[up][up]I assume that when Eagle mentioned "actual monarchy", they were excluding most constitutional monarchies (other than say, Thailand).

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#1524: Feb 10th 2019 at 9:37:47 AM

So Bouteflika, the ailing Algerian president, is seeking a fifth term in office. The man is in his 80s and is wheelchair-bound, but remains the only agreed upon leader of the Algerian junta. Kind of surprised he lived out his previous term, since people were worried about a succession crisis upon his death. That fear remains this time as well.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#1525: Feb 10th 2019 at 10:08:49 AM

Ah, the IRL example of Dark Lord on Life Support keeps on trucking.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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