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General Middle East & North Africa Thread

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Okay, every topic that has even remotely to do with the middle east keeps getting more general news put into it which removes focus from the original topic.

As such, I'm creating this thread as a general middle east and north africa topic. That means anything to do with the Arab Spring, Israel or Palestine should be kept to those threads and anything to do with more generic news (for example, new Saudi regulations on the number of foreign workers or the Lebanese elections next year, etc.) should be posted here.

I hope the mods will find this a clear enough statement of intent to open the thread.

Mod edit: The Israel and Palestine thread has been locked since October 2023. Discussion about Palestine and/or Israel remains off-topic for this thread. This also bans discussion of any military conflict, terrorism or extrajudicial actions involving one of them and a third country (e.g. Israel's air strikes in Yemen).

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 28th 2024 at 12:26:59 PM

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#251: Jun 24th 2014 at 4:45:17 PM

[up][up]Which is why that whole "well, you should listen to your mother... until your father orders you not to" thing was a bunch of whooie. If your father and your father's clan haven't bothered to teach you what your mother couldn't (according to their own doctrine, I should note, as it's not her place to teach you what your father —and his side of the family— should have done, because you're supposed to pick this up, how? by osmosis?) — then they should just sodding accept that they badly dropped the ball on this one by several shades of tradition and just suck the shame up and let her go.

Because they did drop the ball. Badly. The whole clan should hang their heads and quit trying to scapegoat in a desperate bid to make their own neglect somehow her fault. Worse, they're doing so using a political faction that is just as likely to turn on them, given half a chance. How they can accept this idiocy in the name of "honour" the African side of me just cannot fathom. Because, there is no honour in abandoning family against custom and then turning on it to hide your own shame. And, never has been (although people can and do do it — it doesn't suddenly turn it honourable).

Even if they are girls. <_<

edited 24th Jun '14 4:50:31 PM by Euodiachloris

chi_mangetsu Not a Tree from brink of the universe Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Not a Tree
#252: Jun 24th 2014 at 4:52:48 PM

[up] But that's the beauty of cognitive dissonance! If you kill the daughter that's dishonored you, you don't have to take responsibility for your shitty lack of involvement, just destroy the memory of your failing. I mean, it's not like she's a son or anything.

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#253: Jun 24th 2014 at 5:32:35 PM

D'oh, I feel like an idiot. I've just worked out what, exactly, would have sparked the cousin turning her in in the first place was. Somebody suddenly realised that he'd they'd lost out on a chance to cash in on a dowry, didn't he they, as the girl actually managed to survive, even without any input, to be old enough to marry (and have children of her own). Worse, she did it without him them knowing, right? tongue

<slaps head>

Of course! Now they can't gouge her husband the usual way, thanks to you know, being a bit too late. With him being a (presumably and gallingly) rich, American Christian, he is they are hoping to cash in (somehow) by turning her into an apostate, while burying their own mistake in another branch of tradition! Or, kill her trying! (Not to get back at him for picking up what he they ignored, at all... nope.)

And, let me guess: that somebody who turned her in was likely the one who everybody else assumed was looking after her and her mother... but, you know... wasn't. tongue

Way to stay classy... it's your standard dowry balls up and somebody has to pay. -_- And, it ain't going to be me us, right? tongue

edited 25th Jun '14 4:35:51 AM by Euodiachloris

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#254: Jun 24th 2014 at 6:39:15 PM

Question for Arabic speakers. Why is it Libyan names in particular are hard to Romanize? The G-man is the most famous example, but I've also seen General Haftar spelled as Hifter (ew), Heftar, Hefter....

I ask because it doesn't seem to happen to say, Iraqis or Saudis or Syrians, at least in the press (with the exception of whether or not to add the Al/El part of the name, which is at least common across coverage of Arabic-speaking nations).

chi_mangetsu Not a Tree from brink of the universe Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Not a Tree
#255: Jun 24th 2014 at 6:50:58 PM

I'm no expert, but a little Google-fu results in this handy little article that discusses the issue with the transliteration of Arabic words into the Romanized alphabet with that one particular fashion disaster from a few years ago.

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#256: Jun 25th 2014 at 1:30:39 AM

As I understand it, the rule according to these people's authorities is simple. If your father is Muslim, then you are born Muslim and "the door of apostasy is forever closed" to you (quoting a cleric whose name I can't remember, who was discussing the meaning of the phrase "there is no compulsion in religion").

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#257: Jun 25th 2014 at 4:49:49 AM

[up]I knew the daughter of an Iman at school in South Africa. Frankly, her father would laugh that one out the room upon hearing it (heck, he even sent her to a Church of England School for the science lab and access to musical education — he trusted her training in Islam to be sufficient that she wouldn't turn apostate on him: also, I think he was hoping for a doctor or three from his brood). How are you suddenly part of Islam if you've never (or very rarely) been to Mosque and never been taught how to be? It's not like the scripture is embedded in kids' brains at birth, or he'd not have had to get them to sit still for an hour twice a day reciting scripture to learn it in the first place, day after day. tongue

The other one flipping jingles. -_- They dropped the ball. Fess up, take the loss and then shut up — and, then try not to drop any other balls that could have a dowry attached in future, eh? <_< She might be "Muslim" till her dying day (according to them): but, it would have helped their case if she'd actually been brought up in Islam, now, wouldn't it? tongue As it is, they're facing the real danger of looking like total idiots. (Particularly if this backfires and the tiger they're busy riding turns on them.)

edited 25th Jun '14 5:06:35 AM by Euodiachloris

chi_mangetsu Not a Tree from brink of the universe Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Not a Tree
#258: Jun 25th 2014 at 6:53:02 AM

Ooh, can it be a laser tiger?

What a shitty sibling.

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#259: Jun 25th 2014 at 7:36:10 AM

These Muslim fundamentalist types really seem to think that "repenting" is some sort of panacea. There are documented incidents of Syariah court judges here ordering those accused to repent before a verdict was reached.

And yes, I do find the concept of "repenting" being a cure-all in a region where blood feuds are disturbingly commonplace to be rather odd.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#260: Jun 25th 2014 at 7:44:46 AM

[up][up]Somebody is off the birthday present list, yes. -_- If he ever was actually on it. <_< Well done, big bro: sterling job holding your sister's hand through her childhood and teenage years. Keep trotting out her primary school scores like a champ.

That convinces me you saw her from the age of 8 onwards on a regular basis really well. -_-

edited 25th Jun '14 7:48:05 AM by Euodiachloris

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#261: Jun 25th 2014 at 10:41:10 AM

To those authorities, it doesn't matter what his mother was. Even if his father did abandon her when she was six, it doesn't matter—hell, he could have abandoned her when she was born—because within the purview of Islam, women are "delicate vessels" for a man's seed. She belongs to him, not her mother and certainly not to herself. That's why you won't find any logic here.
You have a very inaccurate "understanding" of how Islam sees women. What you're describing is anathema to proper Islamic teachings. Just because a self-professed Muslim community claims that view you're talking about is the "right" one doesn't mean they're right about that.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#262: Jun 25th 2014 at 10:50:11 AM

From that video: "Why should I indulge my humanity... and incur the wrath of my Lord?" he asks. That pretty much tells you what you need to know about what this family believes. He thinks his sister should be executed if she does not repent. Fulfilling what they believe to be the word of their God is more important to them than an individual life. The facial expression of the interviewer (apparently a muslum woman) in response to this is priceless.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
chi_mangetsu Not a Tree from brink of the universe Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Not a Tree
#263: Jun 25th 2014 at 11:08:31 AM

[up][up] But it is perfectly logical for hardcore conservative wings within Islamic belief. Watch out for those No True Scotsman fallacies.

[up] I had a rather... visceral response to some of the quotes in the article.

He claims [her husband] fed her "potions" to convert her to Christianity.
Oh just go fuck yourself. This isn't fucking Agrabah.

"Why would I indulge my humanity, my emotions, and incur the wrath of our Lord? That's not the way it works with us."
No fucking kidding.

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#264: Jun 25th 2014 at 3:08:09 PM

[up]True but you'll find those views amongst most hardcore conservatives of almost any faith, it's almost as if misogamy and hatred for all others faiths has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with right-wing religious fundamentalism....

Also I'd like to note that conservative is technically the wrong word for us to use, these guys would be conservative in dark ages (where they would represent the status quo), in the modern age they're reactionary fucktards.

edited 25th Jun '14 3:10:05 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#265: Jun 25th 2014 at 4:08:35 PM

Technically, they're anti-modernists.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
chi_mangetsu Not a Tree from brink of the universe Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Not a Tree
#266: Jun 25th 2014 at 11:23:38 PM

[up][up] Though let's not kid ourselves: Christianity in extremism is more likely to excommunicate you for leaving the faith or interfaith marriage, whereas Islam plays rather fast and loose with what constitutes an act egregious enough to deserve an honor killing and it's much more harsh against women than men almost as a rule.

edited 25th Jun '14 11:24:13 PM by chi_mangetsu

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#267: Jun 26th 2014 at 2:25:55 AM

[up]On the issue of inter-faith marriage you may be right, though there are enough crazy Christian cults in the US that it's far from a one sided thing. And Christianity is less harsh on women not due to anything inherent to the faith but due to the locations where it is, I reckon if you take a Christian exstreamist from Uganda and put him next to an Islamic exstreamist from Sudan you'll find they have pretty much the exact same position on women.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#268: Jun 26th 2014 at 3:53:37 AM

Could we take the religion discussion to the relevant thread please?

Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#269: Jun 26th 2014 at 5:07:15 AM

What kinds of laws do Mid East countries have regarding lead?

chi_mangetsu Not a Tree from brink of the universe Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Not a Tree
#270: Jun 26th 2014 at 7:27:37 AM

[up][up][up] Christianity went through its growing pains as Judaism did before it. Islam, being the youngest Abrahamic religion, is still going through its growing pains as the region is wrapped up in continuous tribal in-fighting in a rapidly modernizing world.

[up][up] You're asking to talk about the Middle East without religion. That's like trying to talk about the American Civil War without slavery. Sure, you could do it, but you're missing a key ingredient.

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#271: Jun 26th 2014 at 9:04:13 AM

[up][up] What do you mean by "lead"? I doubt that you actually meant the chemical element, or were using its colloquial sense of "slang for 'bullets'".

Also I'd like to note that conservative is technically the wrong word for us to use, these guys would be conservative in dark ages (where they would represent the status quo), in the modern age they're reactionary fucktards.
I believe some/many people have coined the term "ultraconservative" for this kind of people. I personally find it rather apt whenever there is reason to argue against using "reactionary".

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#272: Jun 26th 2014 at 11:29:43 AM

[up][up]Not when thats all the conversation is.

Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#273: Jun 26th 2014 at 12:00:24 PM

Yes I did mean the element . Geez I thought I was pretty straightforward . You know, like lead in paint or gasoline ? Apparently crime has been on the decline in the us since laws regulating lead we're passed in the 70s. My mom is always saying that maybe all the violence in the Mid East is due to something in the air . I never thought it had much weight until I remembered that thing about lead and crime rates

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#274: Jun 26th 2014 at 12:43:52 PM

You'd need a pretty high lead concentration in the air to actually have any effects on anyone, I'll ask over in the medical thread but I'd hazard a guess that the drop in US crime rate since the 70s is related to other things.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#275: Jun 26th 2014 at 12:46:34 PM

I am willing to explain in the Med Thread but it's not on-topic here.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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