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A general discussion thread for all things DC Comics. Topics may be split off into their own threads if necessary. That said, since there's already a thread for the D Cn U (aka Nu52), this one would probably stick to pre-Nu52 comics to avoid redundancy.

I've always wondered if there's a justification for Wonder Woman's outfit being designed after a modern-day one-piece swimsuit/leotard instead of something that would fit her Greco-Roman mythological background (e.g. Amazons were more often than not depicted as wearing trousersnote ). A few attempted redesigns had her adopt Lady Legionnaire Wear for a skirt, but they never stuck. And then of course, there's her pants-wearing design during J. Michael Straczynski's run (courtesy of artist Jim Lee).

edited 27th Dec '13 7:51:31 AM by MarqFJA

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#24477: Jan 16th 2025 at 11:44:49 AM

Morpheus is the God of Dreams.

That's something hard to claim Tanith Lee invented.

I'm happy to hate Gaiman over his personal behavior.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 16th 2025 at 11:45:08 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#24478: Jan 16th 2025 at 12:38:57 PM

Morpheus is the god of dreams, yes, and Tanith did not invent him.

Dream of the Endless isn't literally Morpheus however, in the same way he isn't literally The Sandman. He isn't a god at all, but something different, and under most circumstances, greater than a god. That makes the premise of Tales From The Flat Earth sound a lot like The Sandman. He's part of a family of similar beings? So what? There all abstracts that start with the letter D? Oh, that's suspicious.

Granted, I'm willing to believe it's a Lion King-Kimba wait, wait, it sounds suspicious but it's really not plagiarism, just watch both I swear. But I'm equally willing to accept it's a Dracula-Nosferatu plagiarism case that managed to slip through the cracks. Granted, there's also degrees to ripoffs. Hulk Hogan ripped off Super Star Billy Graham, like his entire look. And he ripped off Austin Idol's "Idolmania" with "Hulkamania". And he ripped off Jessie "The Body" Ventura's poses. But steal from one man, it's plagiarism. How many people does one have to steal from before "plagiarism" becomes "research"? Maybe more than three, but surely less than six. Giving credit can go a long way as well. I'm told Gaiman gave no credit, and maybe he didn't, but I'm not familiar enough with the older work to know for sure. Wait, wait, that was totally acknowledgement, you missed it! Or maybe he really didn't. The argument against him is certainly persuasive.

Buldogue's lawyer
Allisterarch Water-Breathing Human from Ridiculous Procrastination zone (Striking Back) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#24479: Jan 16th 2025 at 1:08:40 PM

How many people does one have to steal from before "plagiarism" becomes "research"? Maybe more than three, but surely less than six.

Probably the minimum number of examples required for a new trope in TLP to be viable—three. Something something From Clones to Genre.

I am skeptical of any claims of "plagiarism" myself. Many are Frivolous Lawsuits that boil down to two different works sharing a few tropes in common. Not to be a Theatre KidTM once again but a really controversial one was a lady (forgot her name) suing the creator of RENT posthumously due to some shared elements such as New Yorkers with AIDS and an avant-garde performance artist organizing a protest, which must have been something pulled from her book instead of, y'know, Larson's friends in New York and the real life events in The '90s that inspired his work. (Or the fact that if RENT "copied" anything, it's La Bohème, but "plagiarism" is fair game when it's Public Domain I guess.) So Gaiman could have been inspired by Tales From Flat Earth, maybe, but they could simply have been drinking from the same well, adapting mythologies in the Public Domain.

I've never been a huge fan of Gaiman, either (although I found The Sandman series neat—but of course I associate it more with Allan Heinberg and the other creatives instead of Gaiman). Only thing I have from him is his Norse Mythology book, something I bought when I was younger and knew nothing about him except for his prestige—but again, this is Public Domain. I am fine with retooling Poison Ivy's origin yet again to get rid of his influence :p it's time for the Floronic Man to get sent back to Atom comics where he belongs.

I'd also like to have an Orpheus who isn't the son of Dream the Endless. Whether his father is Oeagrus or Apollo, we've been robbed of Orpheus the poet-priest-astrologer-magician founder of Orphism. Or the Muses as the Goddess of song-and-dance who are all still around because the arts never died.

(Orpheus was originally the Aquaman of the Argonauts, no I am not exaggerating.)

Edited by Allisterarch on Jan 16th 2025 at 6:28:12 AM

If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#24480: Jan 16th 2025 at 1:56:51 PM

One reason I'd be kind of skeptical of the plagiarism allegation is that although Dream does look a fair amount like Lee's Azhrarn, Dream also more obviously looks a fair amount like Neil Gaiman. Like obviously a pretty different character but it's kind of like how Richard in Neverwhere is described in a way that he looks like Neil Gaiman.

Incidentally, from some recent discussion, I'm definitely getting the sense that Gaiman uses "Richard" to signal an Author Avatar.

I'd also say that from reading Wikipedia, Tanith Lee's series seems to be set in a Weird secondary world. The page mentions Arabian Nights, but it makes me think of something like one of Clark Ashton Smith's weird lovecraftian worlds. In contrast, the Sandman stories are set in the real world to a decent degree.

Edited by Hodor2 on Jan 16th 2025 at 1:57:22 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#24481: Jan 16th 2025 at 2:18:08 PM

[up]x5 Cool part of the announcement, its going to be apart of the Summer of Superman.

"The series is part of DC’s “Summer of Superman” initiative, including Action Comics and Superman, and it will feature limited and ongoing series starring Superboy, Supergirl, Krypto, and more. Stay tuned for more comic book announcements to follow Superman Unlimited."

Also a post Dan Slott made with further information

     Folder Name 
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/post_9.png

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#24482: Jan 16th 2025 at 4:37:54 PM

"Interesting" can't be good. XD

The Protomen enhanced my life.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#24483: Jan 16th 2025 at 5:35:00 PM

For me, this was a really big blow.

Neil Gaiman was formative for me. Neil Gaiman got me thinking in new ways about religion, mythology, social justice, and how i interacted with women. I was a fundamentalist teen with a lot of toxic ideology and he helped me shake out of it and get into my progressive Goth phase.

It screws with my head to see one of my biggest influences prove to be someone with no respect for women or consent or people. It makes me wonder how I could have learned so much that I still believe in from someone who is such an utter shitbag.

I, honestly, can't look at anything he's done now and not feel disgust.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#24484: Jan 17th 2025 at 5:23:09 AM

Random question, does White Kryptonite's plant-killing ability work on all plants or just alien plants, and can it work on Swamp Thing or Poison Ivy?

The Protomen enhanced my life.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#24485: Jan 17th 2025 at 6:35:30 PM

[up]I'm gonna assume just alien plants, but I admit to having zero frame of reference. Kryptonite does tend to have immediate effects on certain beings, and slower effects on people who aren't among that group of specific beings.

Like how regular Kryptonite can give anyone Cancer, but it takes much longer if you're not Superman.

Also, cross-posting this from the Marvel thread:

Can anyone jog my memory on the difference between Johnny Storm and Beatriz DaCosta, aka Fire?

Outside of the latter being Green Fire, I'm not totally sure what Bea can do that Johnny can't and Vice Versa.

One Strip! One Strip!
TomWithoutJerry Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good. from Where Might Makes Right and I have no Might. Since: Dec, 2023
Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good.
#24486: Jan 18th 2025 at 5:48:41 AM

Isn't white Kryptonite Pre Crisis? Green K didn't get humans sick Pre Crisis iirc, right?

Edited by TomWithoutJerry on Jan 18th 2025 at 9:48:55 AM

Please remember that, ultimately, fictional works of entertainment are just that.
Allisterarch Water-Breathing Human from Ridiculous Procrastination zone (Striking Back) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#24487: Jan 18th 2025 at 6:00:09 AM

[up][up] Hmm, Johnny is an USAmerican hero from New York City while Bia is a Brazilian heroine from Rio de Janeiro?

(Also btw it's da Costa "of the Coast", not "daCosta")

If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#24488: Jan 18th 2025 at 9:29:51 AM

Fire has two power sets. One when she is one fire and one when she is not. Human Torch has a bunch of Required Secondary Powers that Fire may or may not have, but Torch is otherwise a bit of a one trick pony. Some writers have had fire pass through objects while "green" however, because apparently being on fire or intangible isn't enough.

Both get their powers from an accident, but Fire's accident was a lot closer to home, potentially endangering people on Earth;she was already a crime fighter.

Torch is an astronaut, a mechanic, and part of a family based in the USA. He gets his name from The Original Human Torch, an android who defended the city. Fire is half of an international duo(technically an international collaboration that seeks membership from all the non USA, non USSR, non China countries, but in practice she only works with the Norway member, which is a story in of itself). She was a model who the Brazilian government decided to turn into an undercover agent, and went on to do detective work once her public knowledge of her became more widespread. And international super hero stuff she was again volunteered for.(for the record, the Global Guardians have always had a good relationship with the Justice Society of America, in the same way The Fantastic Four have with The Avengers and X-Men. The biggest difference between the two is probably that Johnny was the founding member of a flagship team, while Beatrice is a relatively late addition to a secondary team. The Fantastic Four have fell off a little in the 1990s-2000s, but there's like nine Global Guardians before one reaches Fire, where Johnny completely overshadows first Human Torch)

Buldogue's lawyer
FrozenWolf2 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#24489: Jan 18th 2025 at 9:39:10 AM

there are some people who don't even know there is an original human torch before Johnny

unless you are really into the Hatemonger storyline

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Jan 18th 2025 at 9:50:06 AM

This is an outrage against Luminara!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#24490: Jan 18th 2025 at 12:13:07 PM

So weird thing I noticed.

The Wild Storm reboot from 2017 has not seen any recollections and with the trades being out of stock it's hard to get in general.

Now you think this probably because the whole shit behind it's writer scumbag Warren Ellis.

Buuuut DC still regularly releases new versions of his Authority and Planetary book, and just recently released a Compendium collecting his Stormwatch run.

Makes me wonder what's going on with Wild Storm then.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#24491: Jan 19th 2025 at 10:05:34 AM

I keep bumbling across this guy and his stuff. The classic, My Dad can beat your dad talk, but with Superheroes.

And yeah, this one's going in the Marvel and Invincible thread as well.

One Strip! One Strip!
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#24492: Jan 20th 2025 at 6:31:53 PM

I skimmed Absolute Power because I was interested in what would happen with Failsafe.

The messaging with Waller is really weird now.

She's a powerful, stone-faced female figure who passes the Bechdel test is as mean as they come and not often a victim of woke accusations, she's got a nostalgia clause baked into her from her appearances in Justice League Unlimited so most two-celled humans don't think she just came out on the scene, and she's the origin of one of the most bankable teams in DC right now not called the Teen Titans or the Justice League.

And yet she's gone full Doofenschmirtz in some storylines and Absolute Power even had her say "it's time to turn the page on superheroes?"

Like.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#24493: Jan 20th 2025 at 6:44:18 PM

She does the same thing as before, but either the gray got shaved off by time or just someone pointed out that what she does is just screw everyone else over for USA supremacy and treated her accordingly.

Wake me up at your own risk.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#24494: Jan 20th 2025 at 6:50:23 PM

Yet it feels like we are intended to view her with some degree of evil is cool by how they her portray her as this absolutely overwhelming figure who stand against even literal deities.

I think DC keeps over promoting her cause they like having a black female character has one of their headliner antagonists but they don't realize they've made her completely unlikable with little compelling aspects.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#24495: Jan 20th 2025 at 7:34:19 PM

@ Handsome Rob: wild mass guessI like to imagine Jonathan and Damian echo a lot of the heated Superman v Batman debates. And whenever we're in the continuity where Diana has a kid they suggest something out left field like Captain Atom

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#24496: Jan 21st 2025 at 1:36:07 AM

I find the idea recent stories have of Darkseid being a Cosmic Keystone an interesting example of Joker Immunity and a frustrating one for the exact same reason.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
TomWithoutJerry Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good. from Where Might Makes Right and I have no Might. Since: Dec, 2023
Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good.
#24497: Jan 21st 2025 at 5:47:17 AM

With Amanda Waller they wanted to replicate the success of Ultimate and especially MCU Nick Fury, also an Afroamerican uncompromising smart bastard who plays the superhero community along, but forgot that MCU Fury is sympathetic and that Ultimate got so bleak they had to delete the universe, and Nick played a hand on that.

Please remember that, ultimately, fictional works of entertainment are just that.
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#24498: Jan 21st 2025 at 6:28:18 AM

Darkseid is like compressing Legion of Super-Heroes around Lightning Lord. Emerald Empress, Cosmic King, Time Trapper, all the heroes, well, they exist but Lightning Lord is extra special times two! Joker might be the best non hypothetical comparison, but Joker has Batman as a counter balance, Harley Quinn too.

Amanda Waller, as a villain, is kind of similar. Who is the one to foil her schemes? We clearly have our antagonist, but who is the thorn in her side?

I don't know the DCU well enough to answer who that should even be. With Darkseid, three of his foils are obvious(Orion, High Father, Black Racer), even if they're rarely used that way. The other villains too. There have been at least two evil new gods not on his planet, not under his command, even if no one cares about them. Is Dreamer Amanda Waller's hero now? Wasn't Dreamer a Superboy/Legion villain? Better than nothing, I guess. Which antagonists fill in while Waller's out of rotation? Isn't Sarge Steel supposed to be a hero? Even if they explained why he's evil now, to my knowledge they haven't, he's been an inadequate Butt-Monkey. Loser villains for the hero to trounce are nice, makes the hero's struggles more impactful, but do you really want a competence hoarding villain in your on going?

Buldogue's lawyer
TomWithoutJerry Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good. from Where Might Makes Right and I have no Might. Since: Dec, 2023
Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good.
#24499: Jan 21st 2025 at 6:37:01 AM

Half of the evil actions Amanda does now would be best left for General Eiling. Turning him into Red Hulk 2.0 was a mistake.

Please remember that, ultimately, fictional works of entertainment are just that.
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#24500: Jan 21st 2025 at 8:07:12 AM

The Captain Atom man? *saves draft to search the world wide web* "had his brain transplanted into the original Shaggy Man"...

I thought brain transplants were Ultra-Humanite's gimmick.

Buldogue's lawyer

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