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May 29th 2019 at 8:40:34 PM

Actually, Dick is Wally's best friend. Wally and Roy were vitriolic best buds at best.

May 29th 2019 at 8:41:03 PM

[up][up]I thought it was ok the first time it was used. it was dumb but fitting. but its use in this issue? ughhh

and I know humor can be a coping mechanism. the point is we went from super serious to nut shots. theres a middle ground and the abrupt change didnt land well.

alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
May 29th 2019 at 8:43:14 PM

Dick, Wally, and Roy were the original Teen Titans, right? I mean, they were friends, even if they fought.

You know, I'm not even sure why they killed Roy in the first place if they weren't going to do anything with it. Was it just because Titans was ending?

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
May 29th 2019 at 8:46:57 PM

to give jason and ollie angst. without roy to ground jay and no biz or artemis he went full mob boss, and ollie activated the box to take down the league.

also the original tt was aqualad, robin, and kid flash with wonder girl being the 4th member later.

Edited by Deadpoolrocks on May 29th 2019 at 8:48:01 AM

kkhohoho Deranged X-Mas Figure from The Insanity Pole Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Deranged X-Mas Figure
May 29th 2019 at 8:59:15 PM

[up]Also for shock. "Oh noes, Roy is dead guys! Better pick up the comic to see how dead he really is!"

Sonic and the Freedom Fighters — Blue Horizon: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12583620/1/Sonic-and-the-Freedom-Fighters-Blue-Horizon
alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
May 29th 2019 at 9:03:23 PM

Can we finally clone him? They did it in Young Justice, so can they do it in the comics?

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
May 29th 2019 at 9:10:17 PM

no they can only clone wally to fufll a stable time loop no one else can be cloned.

or idk make him a part of the leviathan event somehow considering both jay and ollie are involved

alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
May 29th 2019 at 9:26:58 PM

...That brings up a good point: why didn't Wally clone everybody at Sanctuary and then manipulate the events so that he killed the clones instead of the real people and that fact was only revealed afterwards? I mean, if you have access to "speed clones," why not, you know, use them?

I mean, that technically doesn't even change the past, so it would avoid a Flashpoint. Or just clone everyone and have the clones take over the lives. (And then explore how those clones feel with being a replacement to the dead characters.)

Edited by alliterator on May 29th 2019 at 9:28:56 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
May 29th 2019 at 9:33:25 PM

[up]because this is a serious comic and depression if serious business and only wally can be saved. but honestly Idk just hide them for a few days till time loop has ended and then do this but thats a thing that makes sense

alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
May 29th 2019 at 9:43:59 PM

I mean, having the clones take over (even getting them to listen to their previous selves memories via the Sanctuary technology) would even thematically make sense, as they would realize that even though they were essentially brand new people (born yesterday or in the future, as it were), they still came with the same burdens as their previous selves, because those burdens don't just go away.

Hell, the more I think about, the more "Wally clones everyone and use Sanctuary technology to reupload their memories" would have been a much better ending. Plus: he would still be responsible for their killings, so would still be arrested. So we wouldn't end with, you know, "everybody's still dead except for Poison Ivy the end."

Also: clone angst. We don't need for characters to be dead to have angst, we can have clone angst.

Edited by alliterator on May 29th 2019 at 9:44:31 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
RodimusMinor Not actually a minor
Not actually a minor
Jun 1st 2019 at 10:08:18 AM

Wally doesn't need a redemption arc because he shouldn't have been put in this place to begin with.

"Zolomon messed with the Negatived Speed Force" bam let's never talk about this again.

Blueace Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Jun 1st 2019 at 10:20:02 AM

DC, Marvel and other series have tried to redeem worse crimes.

Hasn't DC tried to make Lex and Harley as heroes recently?

MorningStar1337 Aegroto dum anima est, spes est. from 🤔
Aegroto dum anima est, spes est.
Jun 1st 2019 at 10:21:56 AM

[up] Its sticking more with Harley AFAIK than with Lex (who regressed back into Villainy IIRC) but yes.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jun 1st 2019 at 10:23:27 AM

Is Amphibia an isekai? "We're TV Tropes. We don't need bots to ruin people's lives.". -nightwyrm_zero
Jun 1st 2019 at 10:23:43 AM

In the case of Harley, it see.s like they just made her worse crimes non canon. Same with Ivy. King even made it so that she has never killed anyone before.

kkhohoho Deranged X-Mas Figure from The Insanity Pole Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Deranged X-Mas Figure
Jun 1st 2019 at 10:47:45 AM

[up]I mean, Harley isn't a Complete Monster, but trying to say she's never killed anyone is pushing it. Especially given her ex-boyfriend.

Edited by kkhohoho on Jun 1st 2019 at 12:48:04 PM

Sonic and the Freedom Fighters — Blue Horizon: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12583620/1/Sonic-and-the-Freedom-Fighters-Blue-Horizon
RodimusMinor Not actually a minor
Not actually a minor
Jun 1st 2019 at 10:49:19 AM

If she has killed someone, anyone, then that basically ruins her whole new direction as a wacky fun Deadpool-like character.

Frankly I'd be happy if the Joker's body count was drastically reduced. He's not fun to read about anymore.

Jun 1st 2019 at 11:11:16 AM

[up][up]I said it was Ivy that was retconned into having never killed anyone. Harley's killings haven't been erased but stuff like her murdering children with exploding video games seems to have been removed from continuity.

[up]Um, Deadpool's killed people. It's his job to kill people in fact.

Edited by windleopard on Jun 1st 2019 at 11:17:31 AM

alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Jun 1st 2019 at 11:46:11 AM

Wally doesn't need a redemption arc because he shouldn't have been put in this place to begin with.

"Zolomon messed with the Negatived Speed Force" bam let's never talk about this again.

I understand this sentiment, although I vigorously disagree with it. If a character ends up with a bad storyline, sometimes you can simply wash it away with a Hand Wave, but other times, I feel it's much better to actually do the work in rehabilitating that character and making them stronger through the badness, rather than just saying "It didn't happen."

Like Hal Jordan. He was nearly irredeemable after Zero Hour — and yet, they did end up redeeming him. He not only sacrificed his life in Final Night to save the world, but then he came back as the Spectre and we were able to see his struggle to control his own worst impulses, especially now that he was in charge of one of the most powerful beings in existence.

Aaaand then Geoff Johns said "Oh, Hal going bad? No, no, that was an evil yellow bug that was inside the Green Lantern Battery and influencing him. He didn't really do it." Which basically sucked all of the nuance and interest out of what writer's had made the character post-Zero Hour and returned him to who he was in the Silver Age.

But I don't give a shit about Silver Age Hal Jordan. I liked Spectre Hal Jordan, who actually brought up more interesting questions about morality and justice.

So saying "Wally West didn't actually do it, it was the Negative Speed Force" would return Wally to how he was pre-New 52, I won't actually care. I want to see all of the impact that accidentally killing people would have on someone like Wally — someone who has had a relatively good life up until losing everything, someone who could always solve his problems via running faster (once, he outran Death itself), but now has to figure out how to stay still and face his issues head on. Sure, Heroes in Crisis had a stupid plot, but the idea of him facing his inner demons wasn't the problem. Ignoring that he has any would be.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
MorningStar1337 Aegroto dum anima est, spes est. from 🤔
Aegroto dum anima est, spes est.
Jun 1st 2019 at 12:25:08 PM

There might still be potential for a redemption arc in the vein of Spectre!Hal. My ideas would be.

  • Have the solo title be a character examination of a post (Heroes in) Crisis Wally. See how the loss of his family and the Crisis affected him physically, emotionally and mentally.
  • Have him serve his sentence (Ibet that part will be abridged unless DC are committed to him to the point that his title lasts a few years without being canceled or rebooted).
  • Have him meet with the people his actions had affected (as antagonists or very begrudging allies or just as side characters) and the "ghosts" of pre-Flashpoint Linda, Jai and Irey. His past will haunt him with avengers and reminders not only of that he has lost but also those he willingly wrought his fate upon.
  • Finally, end it with an arc with the premise that his family and their pre-flashpoint status quo can be brought back safely but he has to die for that to happen and attempting to cheat death risks repeating the infamous Flashpoint paradox that resulted in the Nu 52 (yes Dr. Manhattan will likely be involved if he's still a thing after Doomsday Clock). The idea being that after all he's done, he would be unworthy of reuniting with his family and only his demise would bring them back. Wally would then be stuck in a dilemma whose outcome would be decided by an external Crisis Crossover-tier threat spawned by the negative speed force and his own emotions.

the teal deer would be building off Heroes in Crisis to show a Wally that is dealing with the repercussions of his actions and ends a Redemption Equals Death. But I admit that there could be some improvement (and a competent writer that knows about the subject matter, as I presume PTSD will be a major theme of this as well as the question of irredeemably and atonement) with these ideas and that it could be very easy for someone to screw up.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jun 1st 2019 at 12:30:04 PM

Is Amphibia an isekai? "We're TV Tropes. We don't need bots to ruin people's lives.". -nightwyrm_zero
alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Jun 1st 2019 at 12:28:34 PM

See, I like a lot of those ideas (especially him confronting those he unintentionally hurt and being haunted by his family), but I want to reject Redemption Equals Death. I think that that trope can work, but it's often lazily employed, and it's much harder and better to have him live and find redemption through being a better person and better hero than it is to simply die to bring his family back to life.

See, Spectre Hal is much more interesting than Final Night Hal, because Final Night Hal only had to die, while Spectre Hal has to live.

Edited by alliterator on Jun 1st 2019 at 12:29:13 PM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
MorningStar1337 Aegroto dum anima est, spes est. from 🤔
Aegroto dum anima est, spes est.
Jun 1st 2019 at 12:34:09 PM

[up]Good point, another issue is that Wally already pulled a Heroic Sacrifice in Crisis of Infinite Earths AND some variation of Redemption Equals Death seems to be his goal with Heroes in Crisis.

I still want to maintain the theme of separation with this ending as again, the universe (and likely the fans) would be unwilling to see Wally as deserving of a happy ending due to Hi C and its canoncity. Maybe being trapped in another universe as a means of Purgatory would suffice?

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jun 1st 2019 at 12:34:23 PM

Is Amphibia an isekai? "We're TV Tropes. We don't need bots to ruin people's lives.". -nightwyrm_zero
alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Jun 1st 2019 at 12:34:47 PM

another issue is that Wally already pulled a Heroic Sacrifice in Crisis of Infinite Earths
That was Barry, not Wally, but yeah, in HIC, he wanted to kill himself to make up for what he did, but was persuaded not to.

I do think if a book/writer manages to rehabilitate his character, fans can see him as redeemable and would be fine with him ending up with his family again.

Edited by alliterator on Jun 1st 2019 at 12:36:20 PM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
RodimusMinor Not actually a minor
Not actually a minor
Jun 1st 2019 at 1:34:04 PM

I'd be fine with Wally getting a real story arc if this was an organic growth of his character and not Tom King's sadboy fetish infecting him.

Wally the guy with PTSD and depression who murdered everyone is not Wally West and it never will be. At least Hal lacked enough of a character that you could do anything with him, but people still liked him enough that they wanted him back.

Edited by RodimusMinor on Jun 1st 2019 at 4:36:38 AM

Jun 1st 2019 at 2:20:12 PM

[up][up]unless he brings back all the others he killed no he shouldnt. why should he and ivy be the only one to get a get out of dying free card because of bros before heroes? if this story didnt fail so hard at what it set out to do maybe you could build something out of it, but its like trying to build with sand. you can get a little something but it crumbles in the end.

Hal had to die, become gods judgement, be revived, find the lanterns he lost in space and be revealed the have been posessed the whole time before his villainy was allowed to be swept away. and honestly emerald twilight was a much stronger foundation than heroes in crisis.


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