The Defenders

Matt probably doesn't even remember getting out of Midland Circle. And if Elektra isn't around (which she seems not to be), I don't see how he ever finds out.

On the flipside, though, filling in the gaps would give us a few more pieces to put into place as far as how he got back to his mom, which is obviously an important relationship they'll be exploring in season 3. And perhaps Matt might wonder if Elektra made it out too since the whole reason he stayed behind was to not let her die alone. So ignoring that aspect of the events would likely be out of character for Matt (though Elektra won't be in season 3, so far as I can tell, Matt's feelings for her will certainly have to be addressed in order for any form of reconciliation with Karen and Foggy to happen).

And I really want Matt to get back to fighting street-level people instead of ninjas.

According to Jeph Loeb, there are no plans for a season 2.

https://www.themarysue.com/jeph-loeb-no-plans-defenders-season-2/

Aww, that's a shame. Hopefully they renege on that at some point.

Only if they have a better idea than the last time around. That one was a huge let-down.

Or if they ever decide to end the Marvel Netflix shows.

But then theoretically they could now allow the characters to visit each other in their respective shows.

There's no plans on the board. He has said that Iron Fist season 2 is coming later this year. I'm guessing that Iron Fist will be the December release, and that Daredevil season 3 will be released in September.

I assume Jeph Loeb is aware that we have had a longer wait since Daredevil (2 years and 3 months since Daredevil season 2 as of this post, compared to 1 year and 3 months since Iron Fist season 1). Given the lengthy wait of 2 years and 4 months Jessica Jones fans had to wait in order to get their second season, I doubt that Loeb would want to alienate Daredevil fans by putting them in limbo while Danny gets multiple appearances.

Since Marvel seems to be releasing Netflix shows once every three to four months, I see it more likely that they’ll release Daredevil season 3 in September, and Iron Fist season 2 in December.

It just makes sense that Daredevil season 3 should come before Iron Fist season 2: it means that Matt gets his place as protector of Hell's Kitchen back from Danny. Yes he said "protect my city" before Danny and the others left Midland Circle, but it just seems logical from a storytelling perspective as well: Danny should be dealing with his problems with Rand Enterprises, Joy, and Davos, without also having to deal with filling up Matt's duties. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if they make a mention of what Danny's been doing to fill Matt's shoes when he makes his appearance in Luke Cage season 2. It actually seems like a logical place to make such a reference, seeing as Matt's "death" and Misty losing her arm both happened in Midland Circle.)

Speaking of Daredevil season 3, I think Matt's apartment and all his belongings will still be there when he comes back, for no other reason than that Danny seems to like to pay people’s rents for them, usually a few months at a time. It could be something as simple as not wanting to put any stress on Foggy, in particular, to go and clean it out right away. (I do hope Matt does get to keep his apartment. I feel like it’s become quite an iconic part of Matt, and it’s only beneficial that Foggy and Karen keep up the appearance that Matt is still alive as long as possible so that his disappearance doesn’t coincide so directly with Daredevil’s disappearance.)

Gonna miss having Stick around. Matt: How the hell did you get a silly name? Stick: It all began centuries ago...

Stick: "It all began centuries ago, with the Old English word sticca, meaning rod, twig, peg, and spoon. Also from the Proto-Germanic word stikkon, meaning pierce and prick. The source also is of Old Norse stik, Middle Dutch stecke, stec, Old High German stehho, German Stecke, meaning staff, and from PIE root steig, which is to stick; pointed."

Matt: "What does all this have to do with your name?"

Stick: "That's the long history of the word 'stick'. People call me Stick because I'm blind and I carry a cane because people are assholes. It's not my real name, you idiot."

They will probably announce the release dates for Daredevil season 3 and Iron Fist season 2 at SDCC. I still bet that Daredevil is coming first, seeing how Charlie Cox has more scheduled convention appearances in the next two months, compared to Finn Jones. (If there's a Daredevil panel at SDCC, it's probably gonna be made of Charlie Cox, Deborah Ann Woll, Elden Henson, Amy Rutberg, Wilson Bethel, Jay Ali, Ayelet Zurer, Vincent D'Onofrio, Jeph Loeb and Erik Oleson.)

Or they'll announce the release dates based on whichever show starts promoting next week after Luke Cage season 2 comes out.

edited 11th Jun '18 9:30:49 AM by dmcreif

Personally I'm hoping for Iron Fist 2 first, just because A) it would get the season numberings back on track and B) I actually want to see what happens with Danny filling in for Matt during the latter's death-vacation. If Matt comes back before we really see any of that it's a wasted opportunity.

I think it makes more logical sense for Daredevil to come first, for a couple reasons. Daredevil started first, but it only wrapped about a week and a half after Iron Fist. Furthermore, the last season of Daredevil was more than two years ago, and Matt's only outing since then has been The Defenders. Whereas the first season of Iron Fist was just last year and Danny has had two outings since then (The Defenders and his appearance on Luke Cage season 2). Daredevil season 3 was also confirmed last year to have a fall 2018 release, and was ordered a full year before Iron Fist season 2 (DDS 3 got an announcement at SDCC 2016).

Then again, we don't know enough information to know whether Daredevil or Iron Fist will come first. The confusion stems from the fact that although Daredevil season 3 started filming about three to four weeks prior to Iron Fist season 2, Iron Fist wrapped production a week and a half ahead of Daredevil. It all probably boils down to which show needs more post-production time.

Plus, it makes sense to me from a storytelling standpoint: having Daredevil come first means Danny will be able to focus on his own problems rather than also filling in Matt's shoes. I think we'll get a throwaway line in Luke Cage season 2 about him taking up Matt's duties and that'll be all we get on that front.

Unless they want explore the notion of Danny filling in for Matt.

They just as easily could bring that up in a throwaway line in Luke Cage season 2. Given Rand's heavy background presence even with Danny only being in 1 or 2 episodes (Misty's arm, and the cameos that Danny and Colleen make)

Personally, I think it's a little early for Danny to be taking up another hero's identity when he hasn't yet fully come into his own as the Iron Fist.

edited 11th Jun '18 2:59:25 PM by dmcreif

...that's actually a fair point.

Though, the title of Iron Fist doesn't mean much right now with the Hand defeated and Kun Lun gone. Right now it's just a guy with an explosive punch. He's not the Avatar or a Jedi or anything.

He never met a responsibility he didn't run away from

That's why I want his series set before the next Daredevil and to end with New York gone to shit because Danny couldn't even focus on taking over for Matt without wandering off for other subplots

lol.

I wonder if he turns up in Daredevil. That would explain the back to back filming.

The issue that has to be considered is Danny's story arc. The Defenders was a big step forward for Danny in coming into his own as the Iron Fist. He has untangled his feelings about leaving K’un-L'un, which has allowed him to embrace his duties and solidify his identity. But I feel it’s far too early in Danny’s story for him to be taking on someone else’s identity.

Plus, we all still hate him.

That's a thing that needs to be fixed.

Proposal: Danny gets bored being the defender of Hells Kitchen partway through episode 1

The true successors to Matt are then Colleen and Misty

Daughters of the Dragon

Daredevil

DD

Checkmate

As for the filming, it's more like Daredevil season 3 and Iron Fist season 2 filmed concurrently. Netflix seems to have adapted this approach thanks to picking up additional production teams, since they did the second seasons of Jessica Jones and Luke Cage in one block this way, and before this The Defenders and season 1 of The Punisher.

Double posting here, but I'm actually now thinking, there's one way that Iron Fist season 2 can come before Daredevil season 3: Iron Fist comes in September and Daredevil in mid-November.

This idea occurred to me when I consider that reportedly, Iron Fist season 2 will only have 10 episodes, whereas Daredevil season 3 will be getting a full 13 episodes, at least according to a leaker on Reddit. It led me to remember, we had a very similar situation just last year with The Defenders and The Punisher season 1. Daredevil and Iron Fist were filmed simultaneously, with Daredevil filming from November 13th, 2017 to May 20, 2018, and Iron Fist filming from about December 4, 2017 to May 10th, 2018. Compare that to the overlap of The Defenders and The Punisher season 1: The Punisher started filming at the beginning of October 2016, a full three weeks before The Defenders began filming, then wrapped in mid-April, about four weeks after The Defenders wrapped in mid-March. The Defenders had just eight episodes, while The Punisher had a full 13 episodes, thus a longer shooting and post-production schedule.

After having a full panel at SDCC, The Defenders was released on August 18, 2017. After that, IIRC, the original plans were for The Punisher to be released in mid-October 2017, after having a full panel at NYCC, and just two months after The Defenders was released. However, due to the Las Vegas tragedy, The Punisher panel at NYCC was scrapped and the season was delayed a full month to November 17, 2017.

So what I'm getting at here, is that they might run Iron Fist season 2's panel at SDCC, then air the show in September, which would be three months after Luke Cage season 2, and be ample time for their post-production schedule. Then, start the Daredevil promotion and press tour at NYCC, and put out Daredevil season 3 around November 16th, right before Thanksgiving. Then Daredevil can cap off the year on a high note, and get the bonus of additional viewership due to coming out around the holidays.

edited 15th Jun '18 7:38:34 PM by dmcreif

Right now, my idea of what happens to Matt's apartment is that the apartment will likely still be available for the same reason he got it in the first place: the annoying light-flashing billboard across the street. Combine a reluctance on Karen and Foggy's part to clean it out immediately, the possibility Matt might have paid some rent in advance, and sighted people not being eager to rent the place and having it available, starts to make a lot of sense. I hope Matt keeps his apartment. I feel like it’s become quite iconic in the Netflix series, and it’s only beneficial that Foggy and Karen (and the rest of the Defenders) keep up the appearance that Matt is still alive as long as possible so that his disappearance doesn’t coincide so directly with Daredevil’s disappearance. Luke Cage season 2 seemed to imply that that's the case, going off the dialogue Claire and Misty have in Misty's intro scene in episode 1.

Now, Luke Cage season 2 finally started making actual references to The Defenders, and how Matt's loss affects everyone else. Any impact Matt's "death" had on characters in The Punisher and Jessica Jones season 2 was all in subtext, but in Luke Cage, it's more overt. Claire brings up Matt while helping Misty with therapy, she late says to Luke that his crusade against Mariah is causing him to act more and more like Matt, Foggy suggests after Luke is sued by Cockroach that Luke wear a mask like Matt did (which Luke shoots down for obvious reasons). But they didn’t establish how much time has passed between Midland Circle and the start of Luke Cage season 2, only that Matt clearly hasn't yet made his return.

Still not clear is how Matt will announce his survival to the world. Perhaps if he does, he reaches out to Karen and Foggy. Or if Matt doesn’t disclose he has survived, he is found – by Karen. At the end of The Defenders, when she's in the church with Foggy, Karen is still holding out hope that Matt has somehow survived. This could be simply the “denial” stage of grief. But even if it is, it would be entirely in character for Karen to keep digging until she finds the truth. Or, in this case, Matt. With her not finding out until shortly after The Punisher. And at the time of Luke Cage season 2, Matt is being secretly hidden by Karen.

But alas, the game of speculating is fun, and we won't know for certain what they're doing until the first teaser or trailer for Daredevil season 3 is released.

I don't.

I thought the first Season was lackluster, but I don't have that massive hateboner for Danny many other seem to have.

My grip with him would be th-

"I am the Immortal Iron Fist, the protector of Kun Lun, sworn enemy of the Hand."

...Umm, so yeah my big issue with his character happens to be-

"I am the Immortal Iron Fist, the protector of Kun Lun, sworn enemy of the Hand."

The reason that The Defenders didn't exactly work out so well is that they based 90% of it on the storyline of the two "rush job" shows: Daredevil Season 2 and Iron Fist Season 1. So it was never going to be good.

Daredevil Season 2, as good as the Punisher stuff and some of the Elektra stuff was, was never in the original plan, so it was rushed in order to fit between all of the other pre-planned stuff. That's why the show ended up with two very distinct, non-cohesive arcs that never really gelled together. And with regards to the Hand, everything revolving around the Elektra / Hand arc ultimately feels like it's not fully realized, and that takes up like 70% of Matt's story arc. It also means that Elektra ended up being very hit or miss overall. The aspect of her personality that's playful and wants to be better because Matt believes she can, I'm into. But all the stuff with her wanting to kill and thinking that's all she's good for, not so much. There are a number of cringy or "What the hell?" moments that the show expects you to take seriously but instead come off as something immensely campy. Like the moment where she kills the kid and says "This is who I am, Matthew" with the pouty facial expression and blood all over her face. I also don't think anything with present day Matt has ever reflected the kind of almost last-minute "Turns out I actually love you, Elektra" decisions that the writers make to show him get really emotional over her in the climax of both Daredevil season 2 or The Defenders. I like the idea of Elektra being this fun aspect for Matt to embrace his vigilantism but I think virtually everything about her and her relationship with Matt along with the entirety of the Hand is really messy. It also has the side effect of making Matt a dumber character by proxy. He seems way too invested into Elektra over the court/Punisher stuff and it makes a lot of the drama in the back part of the season feel contrived and melodramatic, whether it's with Matt/Elektra or Karen and Foggy.

The result is that compared to Luke Cage season 1 or Jessica Jones season 1, Daredevil Season 2 feels like it was mostly fast-tracked to cash in on the success of the first season. The result is a show that seems to be just going through the motions at times and also seems more focused on introducing characters and concepts for future spinoffs like The Punisher and The Defenders than on telling its own story. It's the reason I hope Daredevil season 3 is a good step back to the basics that made the first season great, especially with Fisk returning as main villain.

Now, Iron Fist Season 1 was even more rushed than Daredevil Season 2 due to the fact that it was delayed multiple times, and due to the exhaustive casting search. And we all know how rushed production itself was, since Finn Jones has said action scenes were rehearsed 30 minutes before filming and that was it.^note On a sidenote, they filmed most of the season 1 fight scenes very late at night or very early morning, which caused them to lack energy or look sloppy. What made fight scenes mostly improved for Iron Fist Season 2 is that they were filming in the winter months (December 2017 to May 2018), compared to Season 1 which filmed from April 2016 to October 2016. Because it was summer when the first season was filmed, they were forced to film in late nights. But in the second season, they were easily able to use the early winter mornings/early evenings to portray and give the illusion of night. This alongside the fact that Finn Jones had a lot more experience and time to train. And the producers of Season 2 specifically ensured that everything was scheduled a lot better this time around.

So, The Defenders comes and now it has to build on two seasons' worth of rocky foundations, which is very possible, except that the writers and showrunners pretty much confirmed they wrote what they wanted, which was definitely reflected in the writing which basically threw away anything interesting from Daredevil season 2 or Iron Fist season 1, to instead focus on the bad. Had they been more meticulous at their plans for the Hand, I think that earlier established setup like the Hand's work with Fisk way back in Daredevil season 1 wouldn't feel like it got retconned out.

There is a lot I am ready to forgive The Defenders, because of the foundation they had to work off from. But there are also a lot of aspects about the show which are self-made sins. And the biggest sin is that the show runner apparently didn't really understand why the audience likes those kind of cross-overs. It is not about some big-scale fight scene, that is nice for a finale, but that is not what people really care about. What they want is to see as many characters as possible interact with each other and whenever that happens in The Defenders, the show is easily at its best. But they waste so much time on introducing all five fingers of the Hand at once AND trying (without success) to make Elektra interesting, and while the interaction between the defenders themselves mostly works (thought there is practically none between Jessica and Danny or Luke and Matt, hell, there is barely any between Danny and Matt either), the little interaction between the side characters does not.