The Defenders

He certainly comes off like he's doing that though. Just for one example, do you seriously not understand why someone buying the building you own and mentioning it in a conversation where they're trying to get you to do something incredibly dangerous looks controlling to some people? I don't think Danny ever really had any malice behind his actions, but that doesn't make them come off as that much less invasive or creepy.

edited 16th Mar '18 3:15:18 PM by Draghinazzo

I have rallied against the Matt/Karen multiple times. I have pointed out the lack of chemistry between them, how unhealthy the relationship is and how little they have in common.

I'm willing to just agree to disagree here because chemistry is subjective as is pretty much everything else in life.

I have also explained multiple times how much of an egoist Matt is in my eyes. But I sure as hell wouldn't ever describe his behaviour as abusive, and I dislike it if the word is just thrown around nilly willy.

What Stick did to Matt and Elektra was abusive. What the monks did to Danny was abusive. What Trish's mother did was abusive. What Kilgrave did to Jessica and his other victims was rape and abuse. But what Matt does to Foggy and Karen isn't abuse, it is just Matt being an inconsiderate jerk. And what Danny does to Colleen isn't abuse or even harassment either, this is just being socially awkward. And that has nothing to do with them being protagonists, but the way their actions are contextualized and how they react when other characters push back at them. Matt doesn't try to stop Foggy or Karen from leaving. Danny doesn't demand anything from Colleen or lords being her landlord over her at any point, not even when he realized that she betrayed him.

I mean, yeah, context means everything here. Matt not stopping Karen or Foggy from leaving has everything to do with the abandonment issues of his mother leaving him at an early age*, his father dying not too long after Matt was blinded, the training Stick subjected him to, and the way his first relationship with Elektra ended. He's one to think it's easier to just abandon failing relationships than try to salvage them because he expects people to leave him.

And yeah, Danny's been removed from American society for 15 years so he needs to be cut some slack.

I think there's a reason why The Defenders and Iron Fist season 1 had so many shortcomings. Netflix were contractually obligated to air The Defenders by the end of 2017. The first monkeywrench in plans was Daredevil season 2, which was never supposed to happen but because of season 1's successes, Netflix wanted it ASAP and they gave it to them. Season 2 had to be launched into production almost immediately, considering the timing of the casting of important characters like Elektra, who ends up driving a huge part of the story in season 2 and The Defenders: she wasn't cast until right before she shows up on the show, and Elodie Yung has said she did her chemistry reads with Charlie Cox while he and the others were shooting the Punisher-only episodes of season 2.

But Daredevil season 2 pushed back Luke Cage and Iron Fist a spot in the cycle. This made things even tighter for Iron Fist because they literally did not land a showrunner and lead for until super late: late 2015 for Scott Buck, early 2016 for Finn Jones, a few months before they NEEDED to start production in order to not get derailed before The Defenders.

The reason I have faith in Raven Metzner making a better Iron Fist season 2 is because there's no longer a contractually mandated timeframe for when shows need to be made / when they need to air. Hopefully that means that there is more time for the creative teams to breathe in between seasons.

*Speaking of Matt's mother, everything across Daredevil and The Defenders seems to imply that Maggie has chosen to maintain her distance from Matt for unexplained reasons (though presumably nothing like Jessica's mother). Like Jack's phone call to Maggie right before his match with Creel where he explicitly asks her to take care of Matt. Or the fact that Stick finds Matt at the orphanage, and the nun that speaks to him seems to suggest she knows who Matt's mother is, which would make sense if they are in the same convent. And the fact that here in The Defenders, the nuns are heard saying "Get Maggie. Tell her he's awake," when Matt begins to stir. There's no reason she would be specifically notified about Matt unless everyone at the convent already knows he's her son.

edited 16th Mar '18 3:20:33 PM by dmcreif

See, I don't equal abusive and toxic. A relationship can be toxic for one reason or another without being abusive. Because I think in order to a relationship being abusive, there has to be the desire to control one party of the relationship by the other party. And that is something which happens in neither Danny's nor Matt's relationships.

And you are overstating what Danny did again.

See, this is the thing with Danny: Let's imagine a woman from an extremely conservative country. Let's assume a guy from France encounters her and greets her in the typical French way, embraces her and gives her air kisses. And now let's assume that neither of them are aware of who the other person is coming from and the customs of their country. The woman will most likely be shocked and might even feel violated. Does this mean that the guy from France was necessarily abusive? Well, depends, if she indicated clearly "hey, I am uncomfortable with this" and struggled against his embrace, then yeah, I would say that he was at the very least with one foot over the line. But if she was too shocked to react and he didn't notice at all that she was shocked, then, yeah, he didn't do anything wrong, it was just a honest misunderstanding.

This is why I keep saying that context matters. Danny's interactions are the result of a stilted development in social interaction. Hence he deserves some slack. And if he had actually used being her landlord to force her to do something, I would be with you. But as it is he was going for a nice gesture and ended up doing something which could be misinterpreted.

I am also optimistic about season 2. One thing season 1 did right was establishing a bunch of layered characters with interesting backstories. There is a lot one can do with it. And without the need to work towards the Defenders, they can go crazy. My only concern is the budget. Netflix has finally to learn that they have to take some money into hand once in a while.

edited 16th Mar '18 3:28:03 PM by Swanpride

If the man continued to kiss the woman after she made it clear she did not want that, then his behavior would go beyond values dissonance. It would be abusive. The issue is that other people make it clear that Danny';s behavior is not okay but he keeps pushing.

Danny does not need to be cut some slack. Being away from American society does not give him a free pass to be continuously invasive. And really, is this kind of behavior allowed in K'un L'un? Does K'un L'un not have standards towards invading one's personal space? Danny's backstory does not automatically make him sympathetic or give him any slack

And toxic and abusive behavior goes hand in hand. Matt is too toxic to have a stable relationship with anyone and he shouldn't be with Karen unless he genuinely does get his shit together, and even then I'd recommend he not talk to her for a long, long, long time first.

It doesn't. A relationship can be toxic simply because it isn't good for either participant, that doesn't automatically make it abusive.

And I don't think that the relationship between the landlord and the tenant has been a topic in Kun Lun, nor do I think that they are big on the notion of personal space.

He doesn't really. I mean, he can hardly sell the dojo and risk Colleen being put out on the street once he purchased it, Otherwise the main reason why he keeps contacting Colleen is because he has nobody else he can ask for help. Ie when he needs someone to send a message to Joy to convince her that he is indeed Danny.

edited 16th Mar '18 4:01:07 PM by Swanpride

A relationship can be toxic simply because it isn't good for either participant, that doesn't automatically make it abusive.

Like, Matt and Elektra for instance. They certainly have on-screen chemistry and are an iconic pairing in the comics, and they have plenty of nice moments here, but I also think they would eventually have had a falling out for the same reason that Trish and Malcolm's hookup in Jessica Jones season 2 didn't work out: that I think two addicts (in Matt and Elektra's case, two adrenaline junkies) are a disaster waiting to happen. Matt acknowledges this to some extent in his confessional with Father Lantom in "The H Word".

edited 16th Mar '18 4:12:54 PM by dmcreif

I usually stay out of the individual threads for these shows and just make smalltalk in the main MCU thread, but this is a bit long to post there. You guys were talking about a theoretical second season of The Defenders? Here I go. Obviously we don't know what'll happen in the upcoming seasons of the individual shows, so I'm just going off what we have.

Okay, so season 1 was primarily built upon plot points from Daredevil and Iron Fist's shows, with Jessica Jones and Luke Cage basically getting dragged into something weird. I'd invert it for season 2, with the plot set up using components of Jessica Jones' and Luke Cage's mythos while Daredevil and Iron Fist are the fish-out-of-water.

In season 1, when they weren't together as a whole four, Matt tended to pair with Jessica and Luke with Danny. I'd switch that up too. A friend of Luke's gets tried for a crime he didn't commit, but Luke manages to get the best zombie lawyer in town to step in and acquit them. There's something extra-fishy behind the bum rap, though, so Luke and Matt work together to figure things out and crack some skulls, all while discussing the legal system and its imperfections, especially in regard to underprivileged groups (oh, and the fact that Matt's back from the dead, obviously). On the other side of town, Hogarth has a job for Jessica; digging up some dirt on a shady executive who's been dealing with one of her clients, Rand Enterprises. Danny's not exactly keen on whatever's going on with his company, and tags along on Jessica's investigation, with some comisseration over their shared childhood vehicular accidents, loss of family, abuse, and resultant trust issues and PTSD (I want a scene of Jessica making Danny recite street names). Sure enough, eventually the two plots converge, and the Defenders are whole again.

As for the villain? Here's where we step into some elements of Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. Let's say that IGH and the Seagate experiments both source the basis of their research from the same "supplier", so to speak; a quarantined individual afflicted with a mutated strain of the typhus virus that has proven useful in creating superhuman traits. The genetic manipulation that produced Jessica, the Whizzer, and other spoilerish IGH experiments? The fusion with abalone shell that made Luke bulletproof? The airborne virus that Kilgrave controlled people with? All sourced from her body. The "patient zero". And now, for one reason or another, she's free. No longer under sedation, her more violent personalities have come to the forefront. She's unhinged. She's as strong as Jessica. She's not quite as durable as Luke^* Otherwise Daredevil would have to sit the fights out; let's just say it's not perfect without mixing abalone genes in there. but she's still pretty damn resilient, and heals quickly, too. She's fast like the Whizzer, has enhanced reflexes^* So she can fight with Daredevil and Iron Fist on their home turf instead of just being a walking brick, and can even exert a limited form of mind control like a nerfed Kilgrave. Oh, and she can also set things on fire with her fucking mind, because she's Typhoid Mary, she's justifiably pissed about being used as an incubator, something something New York City will burn, oh shit son better D E F E N D it from her. That's... about as far as I've got. If somebody else wants to build off that and come up with a cool plot, be my guest.

Admittedly inspired by the pre-release hype for JJ S2 that suspected Typhoid Mary had been cast, which turned out to be false. I liked the idea and would like to see her revamped for Netflix, with a bit of Adaptational Badass and Combo Platter Powers to make her require all four Defenders working together. Maybe her Bloody Mary persona coming to the forefront serves as her Mid-Season Upgrade for the finale, too.

Might also be a good place to bring back Diamondback and tie up that loose end; his hammy lack of subtlety would work better in Defenders than in his home series, and obviously he's connected to Dr. Burstein now.

edited 16th Mar '18 9:57:31 PM by Anomalocaris20

The interesting thing about the post-Defenders shows is that Luke Cage season 2 and Daredevil season 3 are the most impacted by the events of The Defenders, while Jessica Jones season 2 isn't impacted, and Iron Fist season 2 probably won't get much impact because a fair amount of it will probably be resolved in Danny's appearance in Luke Cage season 2.

And they better give us resolution to how Matt got out of the pit.

He climbed duh.

How else would you climb out of a pit.

I thought the implication was that Elektra came to her senses and dragged him out.

I'm trying to guage how pointless the finale of Defenders was if Elektra just strolled out of there

Really pointless, I'd imagine. Like, honestly, she needs to stay "dead" for a while and they leave her survival ambiguous that way, if they do decide to bring back Elektra at a later date, they can make it a big surprise.

But we're all expecting her to come back.

Not gonna be much of a surprise.

Oh, I mean, a big surprise for the audience and for Matt. I imagine any recurring role for Elektra will be as someone who occasionally will pop back into Matt's life, like she does in the comics. But not for season 3.

How is Luke Cage season 2 impacted by Defenders?

Uh, by Misty Knight losing her arm.

Then they need to give us a resolution for how Elektra got out of the pit.

It's an utterly ridiculous Heroic Sacrifice if she wasn't even mildly offput by the collapsing building that he specifically sacrificed himself to keep her from escaping. People say that having the hero survive devalues the sacrifice, but this is a whole new level of Senseless Sacrifice. This is "Chiaotzu Blows Himself Up and Nappa Doesn't Even Care" devaluation.

It will absolutely make the finale even dumber than it already was if the explanation seriously winds up being, "The building fell on Elektra and she was fine. No big deal. It was stupid for Matt to even try this."

edited 27th Mar '18 8:16:15 AM by TobiasDrake

This depends on if they intend to show something pertaining to that. For all we know Daredevil season 3 will ignore that and go straight to Matt's interactions with his mother then getting him reunited with Karen and Foggy. In fact, I think that's what they're going to do because showing how Matt made it out of the pit might bog down the start of Daredevil season 3.

Well it would be consistent with Matt making stupid decisions when it comes to Elektra.

I'm also hoping for Madame Gao to show up again

And that would make the ending of Defenders even more pointless

The dragon bones are presumably lost though. Even if Gao and Elektra are alive, they're Out of Continues.

Dragonbone immortality wasn't so impressive what with decapitations being a thing that could be done

Given that Gao and Elektra never actually used a Continue after their initiation one, I think they'll manage.

Well, onscreen, anyway. Point is, at no point has either character played the, "LOL immortality" card. They've gotten by on just being unbeatable.

edited 27th Mar '18 4:50:01 PM by TobiasDrake