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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#301: Jan 10th 2014 at 6:59:59 PM

I imagine this would be true of 99% of planetside anti-starship weapons.

Historically it's been true of a lot of anti-X weapons. Anti-ship guns and missiles used for shore defense have traditionally been easy to deal with by land and air. Anti-tank guns and missiles are typically ineffective against long range artillery bombardment, infantry attack, aerial attack and naval forces. Anti-aircraft guns and SAM sites are typically not very defensible against an armored spearhead.

Anti-starship weapons would follow the same trend. There is no such thing as a 100% capable of engaging everything effectively. It's gonna have a weakness of some kind.

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#302: Jan 10th 2014 at 7:30:25 PM

Interesting RealLife fact: the West German Air Force used geese for guard duty in addition to the angry guard dog. Geese are mean, they hiss and they will defend their territory. And a pistol won't silence a flock.

So there are real world animals that can be used for guard duty: dogs, big cats etc.

Some works have cybernetic animals: Cyberpunk 2020 had various cybernetic dogs, cats and a tiger sporting a SMG, metal claws and a bad attitude.

Aliens would of course use their native animals. But consider: aliens that are at war with humans might breed large critters to hunt/eat humans. Humans would do the same of course.

There are IRL plants used as passive defense: various throny buses that can stop a burglar and some that are thick enough to stop a jeep. The "Seven scent mint" is used as a passive alarm: step on it and the odor will wake people up, or will let someone know that a burglar broke in.

I'd expect some plants that could be used as a passive defense or have evolved/been modified to aggressively deter intruders.

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#303: Jan 10th 2014 at 7:32:17 PM

some that are thick enough to stop a jeep.

The infamous hedgerows of Normandy in 1944 would routinely stop heavy tanks in their tracks.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#304: Jan 10th 2014 at 8:30:04 PM

Exactly. Jack of all trade platforms tend to perform at best at mediocre levels in most areas. Weapons that specialize tend to have some weakness or vulnerability that can be exploited but work very well against their intended target groups.

Even the infamous dual role German 88's were vulnerable to infantry assault unless supported by infantry and planned defenses.

Combined arms will carry you a lot farther then a strictly specialized army.


For a anti-infantry futuristic take on the bouncing betty with a twist.

EFP explosively formed projectiles. The benefit of EFP weapons is the same charge can fire multiple EFP's of varying size and mass as long as the deforming faceplate is made correctly. You could generate one large fast slug or multiple smaller and roughly as fast slugs. You can even have a large slug with multiple smaller slugs. It is all about the arrangement of the "dimpled face plate" and the backing explosives.

Now with that in mind.

You take the old school bouncing betty idea for the bounding mine. Only instead of a circular blast area that goes off between roughly crotch to just above head height this projectile shoots up from 10-30 feet up, quickly orients on target, and then fires off a spray of EFP's in a focussed cone over the trigger zone.

The thought is mines can be made to target an assortment of vehicles, power armor, or other armored ifantry.

Attach it by a small buried or hidden hardline that is thin and connects it to a IFF and detection system.

The controlling system can be linked to multiple bounding mines and the system can choose to engage the target with multiple mines according to limited automation or preprogrammed parameters.

You can even set the mines to only engage and fire in specific arcs meaning you can create a safe zone in certain directions so it can be used as a defensive feature right up against other defenses or positions.

The launchers can be reloaded by hand or by drone.

The largest ones are used against heavy armor while the most common ones target infantry with common hard/soft combo body armor and second most common is geared towards blasting power armored troops.

The limit of the system will be the size of payload the launchers can accomodate and the limitations of the munitions programmability.


It is theoretically possible to do small scale non-nuclear EMP type weapons. There is a weapon type called the E-bomb. It is designed to deliver a localized intense EMP type pulse over a limited area.

As for the multi-projectile mine system, there is somethign like that, that exists as a man in the loop command or automatic mine system. If I can find the links to it i will bring it here.

edited 11th Jan '14 7:26:03 AM by TuefelHundenIV

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TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#305: Jan 10th 2014 at 9:43:52 PM

Okay, is there an alternative for firing bullets/lead but not quite Star Trek laser bullshit? Like a happy medium?

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TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#306: Jan 10th 2014 at 11:09:25 PM

[up]Railguns, coilguns, gyrojet rifles, ....

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#307: Jan 11th 2014 at 12:05:27 AM

Plasma and particle beams. Hard Light bullets.

Belisaurius Since: Feb, 2010
#308: Jan 11th 2014 at 6:40:08 AM

If you're using plasma you need to explain how the plasma holds together. One decidedly unique method I've seen was used in a x-com fan remake. It involved generating the plasma and then packaging it instantly in a polymer shell before launching the entire thing down range. Yes, the plasma would burn through the polymer shell but by that point the shot had hit something and exploded on impact.

edited 11th Jan '14 6:46:10 AM by Belisaurius

Tricksen Guess Who? from Somewhere Near You Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: If you like it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Guess Who?
#309: Jan 11th 2014 at 6:49:45 AM

[up][up]

Plasma weapons aren't really such a good idea.

These are my reccomendation.

If you're reading this you have 5 seconds to...
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#310: Jan 11th 2014 at 6:56:59 AM

I think taira mentioned it at one point but plasma caused by electrically superheated air as a propellant.

Ooh and my other favourite. The Scram Cannon.

Mass Effect had a unique approach to plasma. The Geth Weapons fired slug like capacitor projectiles that generated plasma on impact dumping a ring of plasma right on the target.

Electro Thermal Chemical projectiles Check this out as well.

edited 11th Jan '14 7:17:49 AM by TuefelHundenIV

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TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#311: Jan 11th 2014 at 11:48:08 AM

[up]Turn water, hydrogen peroxide, or a water/fuel mix to plasma as a propellent. Requires a huge power source but on a ship or as artillery it's doable.

Hard Light is a cop-out, an excuse for writers who don't know science to pull plot devices from their 4th point of contact.

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#313: Jan 11th 2014 at 1:45:21 PM

Still a cop out. They only have a single molecule and nothing of use.

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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#314: Jan 11th 2014 at 2:02:14 PM

^ Nuclear power was once just lines running across salts in a chemistry lab. One step at a time. First it's a molecule, then in time it becomes a gram, then in time a kilogram and then before you know it, the stuff's more universal than cocaine.

Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#315: Jan 11th 2014 at 2:41:53 PM

Anti-starship weapons would follow the same trend. There is no such thing as a 100% capable of engaging everything effectively. It's gonna have a weakness of some kind.

But of course. It'd be absurd to expect a surface to orbit weapon to do a job it wasn't designed for.

So there are real world animals that can be used for guard duty: dogs, big cats etc.

An interesting point. It's not fanciful to assume that such things wouldn't disappear entirely even in a highly technological world.

For a anti-infantry futuristic take on the bouncing betty with a twist.

Loved it. Sounds like you put a lot of thought into it!

I was mulling over the idea of a mine that is really more of a "pressure plate" than a mine in its own right - basically, when triggering conditions are met (including a positive identification of the infantry as hostile), it would activate automated mortars nearby that already have positions in and around the mine/minefield dialled in. Perhaps there would be a time delay so that the targets are led to believe the mine is a dud.

I discarded it from my post since it struck me as not being a true mine in the classical sense of the word, and because it seems like the amount of effort needed is disproportionate to the effects.

Locking you up on radar since '09
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#316: Jan 11th 2014 at 2:44:28 PM

Nuclear power was a lot more then just lines in salt.

Light molecules are still composed of light and your not going to get anything absurd as you get with the Hard Light trope. Just because you can make a molecule doesn't mean you will even come close to seeing Hard Light. Try actually reading the trope.

Here I will tell you what you have. A Particle beam made of light molecules not exactly a truly unique thing.

You know what they want to do with the light molecules don't you? Quantum computing.

Ok the anti-lander craft gun is this. The HARP gun

edited 11th Jan '14 4:30:59 PM by TuefelHundenIV

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TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#317: Jan 11th 2014 at 8:00:13 PM

What about the Hard Light bridges/shields in Halo and its various uses by the Forerunners? More than likely we'll find that purpose before we weaponize it in anyway.

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TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#318: Jan 11th 2014 at 9:16:05 PM

Unlikely. Still falls under overly lazy sci-fi writer side of things. Still Just Hard Light the trope.

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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#319: Jan 11th 2014 at 11:04:22 PM

You know what they want to do with the light molecules don't you? Quantum computing.

That's the first step. Prove you can actually do something with it. (Given the raw power of quantum computing it can also aid in later projects.)

Nuclear power was a lot more then just lines in salt.

Not prior to the 1930s. Radioactivity, indeed nuclear physics as a whole was all but nonexistent in terms of knowledge. There were some theories but no experiments to prove it yet.

Then step by step nuclear physics and its applications turned from fantasy to reality. First radioactive decay was observed and confirmed by Curie and others, then came the first nuclear chain reaction using a theory derived from the prior, then came the nuclear bomb and nuclear power.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#320: Jan 11th 2014 at 11:56:34 PM

Tesla, Edison, and Madam Currie disagree with your assessment on anything nuclear.

There is a world of difference in a form of energy signal used in computing and creating any form of solid tangible matter. The quantum computer proves it can be used for transmitting signals. We do that with lasers, electricity, and eletro magnetic waves.

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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#321: Jan 12th 2014 at 8:05:53 AM

We do that with lasers, electricity, and eletro magnetic waves.

And like what you're discounting with hard light, once upon a time those things were fantasy "cop outs" as well. Nobody in 1950 thought a laser would be used to send communications. (Or weld metal or destroy IED's/missiles or measure distance or really a lot of things they do now.) Nobody in 1850 thought wireless long range communication in real time was going to be done. Even before that, people had no idea that the possibility of electricity let alone controllable electricity existed.

Little by little over time they went from fantasy to reality.

Belisaurius Since: Feb, 2010
#322: Jan 12th 2014 at 8:26:48 AM

Okay, here's the deal with hard light.

Yes, you can use light as a repulsive force. The solar sailer proves that. However, in order to achieve a force equivalent to solid matter, we need a photon density that's near solid matter. We have created this before. In the first few shakes of a nuclear detonation.

Light at that intensity would destroy matter. Really, your back to shooting lasers again.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#323: Jan 12th 2014 at 10:00:48 AM

[up][up]This is why I say FTL is probably possible, is just that we haven't figured it out yet. Science Marches On indeed.

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TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#324: Jan 12th 2014 at 1:31:16 PM

tom: The vast majority of fictional lasers still don't exist. The few examples of fictional lasers that do exist were based on actual science not far reaching fantasy and whimsy. Let me know when we get manport lasers that can vaporize an entire person or punch a whole clean through a tank. We don't have war of the worlds heat rays by any stretch of the imagination. A single step doesn't mean shit if what your proposing is fantasy.

Just like the really old fiction of man going to the moon by being shot out of a giant cannon. We did go to the moon yes but the reality is much much different from the fiction. And just like your beloved fantasy concept of Hard Light the reality is far more mundane.

tactical: Difference between science marching on and science doing the hokey pokey.

edited 12th Jan '14 1:32:07 PM by TuefelHundenIV

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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#325: Jan 12th 2014 at 2:32:22 PM

Let me know when we get manport lasers that can vaporize an entire person or punch a whole clean through a tank.

It ain't that far away. We have weaponized lasers now that are going to be put on warships today. Thirty years ago that was inconceivable. Hell ten years ago it was thought impossible, the realm of science fiction only. In ten maybe twenty years we might actually have lasers that can burn through tanks.

A single step doesn't mean shit if what your proposing is fantasy.

A single step is all it takes to start. Once started, there's no going back to saying it's impossible. We might not see hard light applications for fifty or more years but we're learning today that first step that it is possible for light to behave like matter such as a solid.

You gotta remember a lot of what we take for granted today was pure fantasy just a few centuries ago. Artificial light was the realm of man-made fire, magic and God powers used by mythologies and religion. Today you flip a switch and you can illuminate an entire city. No magic, no God powers. Long distance communication between two different places was the same way back then, purely the realm of God powers and magic. Today you turn the dial on an AM radio and listen to stuff from 1000 kilometers away, or better yet talk to someone literally on the other side of the world on a cellphone. I'm pretty damn sure old Moses back in the day wouldn't have needed a burning bush if they had cellphones back then.

but the reality is much much different from the fiction

Different means, same end. What was once thought impossible or the realm of storytelling became real.


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