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Unclear Description: Fackler Scale Of FPS Realism

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AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#51: Oct 18th 2013 at 5:16:22 PM

It's really not so much of a definition change as a sorting change. The trope's still the same, more or less. (Funny how "more or less" always means "less".)

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RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#52: Oct 18th 2013 at 6:48:29 PM

You're right, weirdly enough — the biggest real change is that there are distinctions drawn among the less-simulation-y games between stuff like Unreal and stuff like Unreal Tournament. And that the scale has guidelines for simmy games that aren't either war games or hyperrealistic Rainbow Six-esque sims.

...I think "more or less" can be "more" when it's actually describing numerical quantities.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#53: Oct 18th 2013 at 7:28:56 PM

  1. You don't need examples in the definition: they're on the page.
  2. Very short paragraph. Most of it belongs in the analysis page.
  3. A general description of the scale is needed. The categories are just artificial boxes we've made to make sorting easier.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#54: Oct 18th 2013 at 8:31:57 PM

A general description of the scale is needed. The categories are just artificial boxes we've made to make sorting easier.

That makes sense.

...

...any suggestions? I'm honestly struggling to come up with anything.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#55: Oct 18th 2013 at 8:46:49 PM

I went and added the examples from the main page to Sandbox.Scale Of FPS Realism, since the definitions are pretty much fixed, and sorting is needed and will probably take some time. I did cut them into the categories we've picked, but they're not sorted other than that. I basically just chose where to cut them based on what examples had been said to fit certain categories, and the order is still the same top to bottom as on the main page.

I read it through quickly, and it's clear that the last category has a lot of examples that should been placed further up.

edited 18th Oct '13 8:47:30 PM by AnotherDuck

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#56: Oct 18th 2013 at 9:13:53 PM

FPS games on the classic end of the scale are characterized by fast movement, bunny-hopping, dominance of slow-projectile explosive weapons (rockets), large health gauges (or regenerating health) to allow for longer duels, nerfing of the accuracy/firepower of direct-fire automatic weapons for gameplay/fun purposes, and fun tricks like rocket jumping. Vehicles will be easy to pilot, able to dodge/strafe, and able to shoot reasonably well while moving. Hyperspace Arsenals are common. Items are placed on the ground very unnaturally or are even spinning in the air. Near the classic end of the scale, Artificial Stupidity is common for balance purposes. Bosses will be larger-than-life and over-the-top. FPS games on the realistic end of the scale are characterized by slower/fatigue-restricted movement, use of crouching/prone positions to increase accuracy and reduce visibility, dominance of sniper rifles and assault rifles, the need to use scopes or iron sights for long-range shots, recoil having a detrimental effect on accuracy (and discouraging the use of automatic fire), limited health (though the existence of the Instant Death Bullet is itself a sign of unrealism), and bleeding, leading to very short combat and an emphasis on the use of cover. Vehicles will require multiple crew to operate effectively and will be restricted by terrain. Usually uses Mooks But No Bosses, but if there are these usually are either as easy to take down with a Boom, Headshot as yourself or vehicles that the bog-standard bullet hose can't scratch, forcing the need for anti-vehicle weapons.


If we can, it would be good to alphabetize examples in their folders. I didn't say anything earlier, because I figured we'd put a crowner through, to make sure there weren't any objections before we made the change.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#57: Oct 18th 2013 at 10:00:00 PM

Question: are these categories taking narrative elements into account, or is it strictly based on gameplay? I thought it was a gameplay trope, but the descriptions of the categories make reference to setting — though the examples don't seem to actually pay any attention to setting when discussing realism.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#58: Oct 18th 2013 at 10:05:39 PM

Yeah, I thought about alphabetising them, but then I figured there was a point in letting them remain in the same order, if we decided to have the examples each category still scaled.

A crowner would perhaps be needed for a rename, but I don't think restructuring needs one, unless someone actually comes with an objection. No objections have been raised in the thread, and it's about a week old.

I removed the numbers in the list, since those invite the Type X problems. Considering the words for the categories are at least somewhat descriptive, it's a non-issue. Which was the only concern I've read in the thread.

[up]We'll need to go over how the examples are written. But yes, this is a gameplay trope. Graphic style doesn't really factor into it very much. It adds flavour to it, and suggests where an example fit (a cartoony game like Team Fortress 2 is far more likely to belong on the Classic end, while a realistic looking game has a greater chance of belonging further down), but doesn't define it in itself. In the description, I took setting to include gameplay, but it may also need to be rewritten if it's not clear.

edited 18th Oct '13 10:10:22 PM by AnotherDuck

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mikurufan from Away Since: Nov, 2012
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#60: Oct 18th 2013 at 10:11:39 PM

Technically, this trope. But we have a motion to rename it to just Scale Of FPS Realism, since the Fackler part doesn't add anything and is pretty much just made up.

edited 18th Oct '13 10:12:13 PM by AnotherDuck

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RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#61: Oct 18th 2013 at 10:12:02 PM

@crazysamaritan: I feel like that paragraph has a lot of stuff in it that's not actually represented on the scale, but every time I try to pick something out, I realize it is part of the criteria.

@Native Jovian: That's a really interesting point! I don't know how exactly it should be fixed, though — or even if it needs fixing — but it's something I didn't realize I was doing when I was writing it.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#62: Oct 18th 2013 at 10:50:21 PM

Summarize the main points: a larger descriptive body can be included on Analysis.Scale Of FPS Realism

I think you're conflating "setting" and "premise".

edited 18th Oct '13 10:51:10 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#63: Oct 19th 2013 at 3:37:09 AM

I would not waste time with a rename. Anyhow, this trope seems to be mostly a gameplay trope, with a minor contribution of setting.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#64: Oct 19th 2013 at 7:30:36 AM

Clear, Concise, Witty.

Where does "Fackler" fit in those rules?

[down] fair enough

edited 19th Oct '13 7:40:11 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#65: Oct 19th 2013 at 7:32:28 AM

"If it ain't broken, don't fix it".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#66: Oct 21st 2013 at 9:31:51 AM

I'm okay with leaving the Fackler in as well, but we can do a title crowner after the description crowner if people want to.

On which subject: I finally remixed crazysamaritan's suggestions into something which my crazy-ass brain is satisfied with. Shall we do the single-proposition crowner on whether to use the description from Sandbox.Scale Of FPS Realism now, or are there other edits people want to make before we open for voting?

edited 21st Oct '13 9:32:25 AM by RobinZimm

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#67: Oct 21st 2013 at 10:43:24 AM

I think it's good enough as it is, but we can leave it a few days to see if there are opinions about it. Better to not change it while a crowner is running, as that's about the same as changing options in a crowner after they've gotten votes.

Examples still need better sorting as well.

edited 21st Oct '13 10:43:53 AM by AnotherDuck

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RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#68: Oct 21st 2013 at 12:29:35 PM

I'll go ahead and start sorting, then. It sounds like the present categories are generally acceptable.

troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#69: Oct 21st 2013 at 2:48:38 PM

Sandbox looks acceptable except for Real Life, which should just be deleted, not sorted. I mean come on. tongue

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#70: Oct 21st 2013 at 3:57:25 PM

I've got no problem with that.

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#71: Oct 21st 2013 at 5:54:09 PM

Speaking of the examples list: maybe we should just sort each category alphabetically. It'd make it a lot easier.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#72: Oct 21st 2013 at 10:55:56 PM

That is preferred wiki policy, so yeah.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#73: Oct 22nd 2013 at 4:35:27 AM

As I mentioned, I kept them in their original order as that might make it easier to see what work falls into what category while sorting that. Sorting alphabetically was something I had planned on doing later (unless we decided to keep it as a scale even within the categories). And checking everything is namespaced (most likely Video Game or Franchise for everything), possibly rewriting some examples referring to the previous order, making sure it's properly indented, and general cleaning. That sort of work fits me better than wick fixing, which gives me a headache. And assuming no one else is doing the same thing at the same time...

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#74: Oct 22nd 2013 at 5:15:17 AM

I'm happy enough with the sandbox. I can do the wick fixing and adding project, but first we need confirmation beyond the four of us that the changes are approved. I don't think we need to finish sorting before the crowner is created. That can run at the same time.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#75: Oct 22nd 2013 at 11:16:53 AM

Re-sorting examples is a minor repair action; the consensus requirements are a lot looser than if we were renaming or redefining (i.e. it's something we could do in the page's discussion without going through TRS). If there are no objections and we're all on the same page, we can expedite the process and skip the crowner.

edited 22nd Oct '13 11:19:44 AM by troacctid


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