TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Unclear Description: Fackler Scale Of FPS Realism

Go To

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#26: Oct 17th 2013 at 11:00:53 AM

Using four tropes it must use is a rather arbitrary definition


Darn. I was going for "excessively strict". Or "Hard lines". My point is that the definitions for the categories paint a broad picture; how much time is spent on Simulation, how much time is spent on Gamism?

What's a Cowbell Scale? Google doesn't get me anything relevant. We're talking about an arbitrary classification of, "is this FPS more interested in providing accurate simulation, or good gameplay?"

Most games can be both, but more time is spent on getting one aspect better than the other. Usually because the idea is for one to complement the other, instead of compete against. The Acceptable Breaks from Reality for the Metro example shows how the unrealistic elements allow players to focus on the other elements that are realistic, instead of distracting from them, and causing memory issues (a gameplay negative). The gameplay is there to compliment the simulation, and make the simulation entertaining.

To say there is an "Other" category is to invite people to use it as the middle category, or to misuse it as "My awesome game does both!.


Edit: I was trying to invoke the Sliding Scale of Shiny Versus Gritty, because realistic hits Real Is Brown for me, as well. I'd like another word, but I'm not sure about which one. The other three categories read like genres, and "realistic" I feel will still attract misuse for "immersive". Ideas...
  • military
  • combat
  • warfare
  • real rounds
  • operations

edited 17th Oct '13 11:11:43 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#27: Oct 17th 2013 at 12:05:37 PM

@crazysamaritan: ...I don't know what parts of your posts are replies to what, but I'll try to reply to the bits that apply to my post:

  • The "cowbell" thing is just a reference to the Saturday Night Live sketch — what I meant was that any scale which sorted examples purely as containing "more realism" or "less realism" wouldn't give specific guidance as to where any particular example landed.
  • I don't think it's a matter of good or bad gameplay — the gameplay in Call of Duty is not majorly worse than the gameplay in Unreal Tournament — but whether the actions of the players more or less resemble what we would expect actual human beings in a given situation to attempt. A lot of what happens in a Call of Duty game looks a lot like what happens in Band of Brothers, for example, while almost nothing in Borderlands does.
  • The trouble with finding a substitute for "realistic" is that part of the appeal of the games is specifically their imitation of reality. On the other hand, I agree: "realistic" is a word that covers a lot of non-gameplay aspects, and a careless editor is likely to be influenced by those when we don't want them to. And, of course, on the gripping hand, if we use a word like "combat" or "warfare" or "military", we make it sound like games that aren't battlefield sims (e.g. Left 4 Dead, Rainbow Six) don't fit in the brackets near the simulation end of the scale.

...I'm going to the can. I'll be right back.

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#28: Oct 17th 2013 at 12:11:37 PM

Wow, I just realized: where would Call of Juarez fall?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#29: Oct 17th 2013 at 12:13:36 PM

Call of Juarez: I will need some details on it.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#30: Oct 17th 2013 at 12:33:53 PM

This IGN video review gives a little of the flavor — the Ray parts are sometimes a bit rail-shootery, while the Billy parts are kinda action-platformer.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#31: Oct 17th 2013 at 12:34:01 PM

Well, I think realistic is, by its own definition, exactly what we mean here. Gritty is for me even more just about aesthetics, which is the part of realism we don't want to associate it with.

Also, the trope is named "... FPS Realism".

Anyway, do we agree on those four categories? We've written more or less the same thing. Just so we don't start discussing in circles and delay needlessly.

edited 17th Oct '13 12:34:36 PM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#32: Oct 17th 2013 at 1:36:39 PM

General: yes, I think @25 has a set of definitions we can agree on.

@27:

  • I was only directing the edit section towards you. I tossed out those terms because I'm not going to be very good, but I tried. I'm not a big FPS player, so my reference for a "realistic" game would have to support my military background.
  • gameplay: Tic Tac Toe is very gameplay oriented. Chess is more simulation oriented. Go falls somewhere between the two. Not bad gameplay, but these games with total information (you know everything your opponent does and can do) show different levels of gameplay and simulation interaction. more on GNS theory here. The 'n' aspect isn't a part of the scale.

@31: the problem is getting people to use words like "literally", "realisticly", and "irony" correctly.

edited 17th Oct '13 1:39:47 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#33: Oct 17th 2013 at 2:08:02 PM

@32:

  • I'm struggling to come up with one myself, not being a big FPS player either. Do we have any big FPS players in this thread?
  • When I say "gameplay", I don't mean "Gamist-play" — I mean "what the players do while playing the game". The gameplay of chess is one of observation, deliberation, and action; the gameplay of Diplomacy is military strategy, negotiation, and reading of your human opponents; the gameplay of Nazi Zombies is bullet-spraying, dodging, and spending points on equipment and upgrades. It's perfectly possible to talk about the gameplay of a game like Red Rimmed Eyes which — as far as I can tell — has no Gamist aspects whatsoever. Is there a better term for what I'm talking about?

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#34: Oct 17th 2013 at 6:35:22 PM

I guess the proposals in @25 work in general, although I worry that the more categories, the more likely it is that this is going to fall victim to Type A Syndrome.

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#36: Oct 17th 2013 at 7:08:34 PM

My personal name for the thing we used to get with a lot of tropes divided into "types" where people would abuse the type names for Zero Context Examples (i.e. "Generic Trope: Bob is Type A") and/or get into arguments about which type a certain work or example fit better.

edited 17th Oct '13 7:09:03 PM by nrjxll

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#37: Oct 17th 2013 at 7:13:40 PM

Ah, like with Tsundere. Gotcha.

Zero Context Examples is a problem that I think no force can solve, but judging by the way people interact with Mohs Scale Of Science Fiction Hardness, I don't think people generally add sliding scales to trope lists. If they do, I think having descriptive titles for the categories will help.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#38: Oct 18th 2013 at 4:44:37 AM

Names instead of labels help. I suggested splitting into sub pages, because I think that helps.

I was the one using the term that way. The Classic FPS games are more Gamist to me, because the question is how good are you playing with the mechanics. At the simulation end, the question is more what would you do in real life. Gameplay actions: Bunny hop. Simulation actions: defensive structure.

An FPS automatically includes both scales, and this trope is measuring with one is dominant.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#39: Oct 18th 2013 at 5:34:54 AM

@crazysamaritan: ...you just did it again. Bunny hopping and taking cover behind structures are both gameplay actions.

And actually, the scale doesn't parallel the Gamist-Simulationist axis at all — a highly Simulationist Star Wars game would be in the second box, not the third or fourth.


Getting back to the scale: I think the two middle categories should be renamed. Games like Call of Juarez most likely belong in the more classic box of those two, despite lacking speculative fiction elements, and crazysamaritan's point about players mistaking "realistic" for "immersive" is valid.

The former: maybe something like "Coherent Shooter"? Some language that distinguishes a game with a consistent gameworld that might hypothetically function if it weren't a videogame from one that could only exist to make the shooting work.

The latter: For some reason, "Mundane Shooter" springs to mind — I know it's the wrong word (people will read it as "boring" and put their examples in the Simulation category instead). Maybe "Terrestrial Shooter"? Again, bad name, SFnal examples taking place on Earth will be added...

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#40: Oct 18th 2013 at 5:57:42 AM

There is no gameplay-simulationist axis. The two are independent scales.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#41: Oct 18th 2013 at 6:05:09 AM

Excuse me for a moment, but I feel the need to shout.

"GAMIST" AND "GAMEPLAY" ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORDS. THEY ARE NO MORE INTERCHANGEABLE THAN "CORSET" AND "COSPLAY".

Thank you.

Anyway, point taken — my mental conception was of a triangle representing the balance or imbalance of the three aspects of gameplay, but I suppose a spider plot would make more sense given that one game can have less of all three than another.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#42: Oct 18th 2013 at 1:13:10 PM

Lazy way of renaming them: Semi-classic and semi-simulation. Or some such that sounds better.

Check out my fanfiction!
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#43: Oct 18th 2013 at 1:18:30 PM

I'm okay with that.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#44: Oct 18th 2013 at 2:17:19 PM

This seems like a good time to revise my prior draft. Besides switching the names, I'm rewriting the definitions to better describe the pools of games I see falling in each bracket, so comments would be much appreciated.

  1. Classic FPS: These games basically run on Rule of Cool and Rule of Fun. Elements of the game might be inspired by reality, but whatever setting details that exist are usually purely aesthetic, justifications for the aforementioned Rule of Cool/Fun gameplay, or simply convenient from a technical standpoint. Examples: Doom, Nazi Zombies, Unreal Tournament.
  2. Semi-Classic FPS: These games take place in a setting that has internal consistency and plausibility, but not one in which the combat particularly resembles Real Life. Rule of Cool and Rule of Fun aspects are still ubiquitous, although justifications of these tend to be more common. Examples: Half-Life 1, Halo, Call of Juarez.
  3. Semi-Simulation FPS: The preponderance of game elements are either based on real equivalents or intelligently extrapolated from present technology. Some Acceptable Breaks from Reality are included, but enough Real Life factors (e.g. fatigue, limited carrying capacity, steadiness of aim) are included to make the player and NPC behavior more resemble what would be seen in a situation populated by mortal human beings. Examples: Call of Duty, Far Cry 2, Left 4 Dead.
  4. Simulation FPS: These games not only employ real-life or intelligently speculated weapons, but make a specific point of simulating major elements of gun battles (e.g. firearm mechanics, bullet physics, physiology of gunshot wounds) in detail. There may be Acceptable Breaks from Reality included, but gameplay not only resembles actual combat, but is radically affected by the modeling of reality programmed into the game. Examples: Rainbow Six, Receiver, Metro 2033.

Edited to replace "Realistic" with "Semi-Simulation".

edited 18th Oct '13 3:47:24 PM by RobinZimm

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#45: Oct 18th 2013 at 3:28:59 PM

I'm fine with that.

Check out my fanfiction!
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#46: Oct 18th 2013 at 3:43:43 PM

I agree with that scheme as well.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#47: Oct 18th 2013 at 3:51:02 PM

(Looking at what I wrote, I think the "more" in the Semi-Simulation description should be dropped and that there's a number error in Semi-Classic with "These games take place in a setting", but those are minor edits.)

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#48: Oct 18th 2013 at 3:52:16 PM

So we have the "Classic FPS" on one side of the scale, and the "Simulationist FPS" on the other side. Games that are a little more realistic than the Classics are Semi-Classic, and games that are a little more Classic than the Simulationists are.... I liked the Semi-Simulationist. I think the names become almost as indicative of the spectrum on their own that way:

  • Classic
  • Semi-Classic
  • Semi-Simulationist
  • Simulationist

That aside, I think Robin's definitions have improved again. If you can; get a draft ready in Sandbox.Scale Of FPS Realism, and then put a crowner up asking "Do we rename and redefine Fackler Scale of FPS Realism to Scale Of FPS Realism, with the definition at Sandbox.Scale Of FPS Realism?".

Single-proposal crowner. Unless anyone has any major objections to Robin's work, this should pass quickly.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#49: Oct 18th 2013 at 3:59:06 PM

Copied over the definitions to the sandbox page as suggested — before you open the crowner, though, I'd like to look at the present page and see how much of the material that already exists I should transfer to the new version.

Edit: I mean in terms of description, not examples, obviously.

edited 18th Oct '13 3:59:27 PM by RobinZimm

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#50: Oct 18th 2013 at 4:45:45 PM

Okay, help wanted.

  • Should the definition paragraphs for each category list examples? If they do, which examples would be best? The two selection criteria I had in mind were that the examples should:
    • Be as well known as possible, while
    • Covering the diversity of games within their category.
  • Would some remarks on the history of simulationism in FPSes be good? If so, how much should be included, and what's the important stuff?
  • Is there anything else that we need to include in the text above the category definitions?


Total posts: 81
Top