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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#426: Jan 1st 2022 at 7:43:17 PM

It's ironic that when one of the directors of the first films makes a direct sequel it gets compared to a fanfic because it's so tonally different, but frankly I liked the tone of the Matrix trilogy. That's why I watched it. If other people watched it for different reasons that's totally fine and I get it.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 1st 2022 at 10:43:56 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#427: Jan 1st 2022 at 7:50:46 PM

And why did we need to enslave and genocide A.I.s? This is the problem. We're starting from an absurd (or at least extreme) premise to explain why the machines' war against humans was justified.

Well, the entire concept of robots in science fiction began and has continued on the premise it is a metaphor for humanity's oppression of the working class.

The word robot comes from a word for slave for example: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Theatre/RUR

The Sisters are drawing from the long literary tradition that whenever we talk about AI and robots, we're talking about humanity's desire for disposable and hated subclasses not Siri.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 1st 2022 at 7:51:47 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#428: Jan 1st 2022 at 8:41:20 PM

And that’s fine and dandy if we’re telling a pulp sci-fi story, but the metaphors get a bit mixed if we’re supposed to empathize with the A.I.s who genocided humans OR the humans who genocided A.I.s, never mind focus on a transcendental love story in the middle of all this.

The backstory works better when it’s left to the imagination, especially if it won’t be relevant to the story being told on screen. This is the same problem I have with the new movie: too much world-building that doesn’t serve the core plot and doesn’t lead to any story beats.

The first movie was as tight as a drum in this regard. The sequels added some elements that didn’t serve much purpose, especially the Merovingian and his cohorts, which is the main source of their weaknesses in my opinion. I’ll be contrarian and say that I like the Architect because he sets up Neo’s final choice.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#429: Jan 1st 2022 at 11:17:58 PM

EH, I mean the whole thing is about a Cycle of Revenge by the sequel. We get a sense of this even in the movie where the Machines mention they originally put humans in a paradise and weren't evil.

It was never meant to be the Terminator.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#430: Jan 2nd 2022 at 7:37:08 AM

Is it, though? The humans aren't out for revenge against the Machines; they just want to survive. There's obviously no realistic chance of defeating the Machines, and the Machines rely on humans to power their society so they aren't going to wipe them out completely... although that particular plot element is deeply unscientific and has been called out many times, so I won't dwell on it.

As long as humans are good little batteries and don't resist, there's no conflict. The "war" is between the Machines and the humans who are resisting, although as we learn in Reloaded, even that is overly simplistic. The Machines are fine with cells of human resistance because they provide an outlet for the ones who refuse to accept the Matrix. When the human resistance becomes annoying, they swat it down. When the Matrix becomes unstable, they reboot it. From the Architect's point of view, this is all hunky dory.

From the Machines' point of view, Neo's refusal to accept this cycle is a genuine problem because it corrupts the whole system, symbolized by Smith. His rogue code becomes a virus that can't be fought from within the system. This gives Neo a unique bargaining position: offer us a new deal or all your human batteries will die, and maybe your civilization as well.

This is excellent from a storytelling perspective. We now have a reason to want Neo to win other than his personal struggle, and Neo has something meaningful to offer the Machines. The stakes are at their highest point, and Neo has to offer himself as a sacrifice to end the war. Masterful.


Now, in Resurrections, we learn that the bargain that Neo made held. It worked. Humans are at peace (more or less) with the Machines. They can pop around the Matrix and try to free people without being actively hunted by Agents or Sentinels as long as they don't make a mess... except not, but we'll get to that.

This is gratifying for the audience because we learn that the sacrifice accomplished something. There's a new society and a new culture being built with humans, programs, and Synthients all working together. Sweet, let's go.

But for some reason these humans decide to risk everything to free Neo, who in turn decides to risk everything to free Trinity, just so they can be together. There's no overarching purpose for it. It doesn't stop a war, or start a war for that matter. It doesn't change the dynamic of the human-Synthient society.

Sure, it messes up the Analyst's plans, who wanted his own little Matrix to play around in, and I'm all for Neil Patrick Harris in the role of a hugely punchable villain who gets his toys taken away. There are also tantalizing glimpses of a fight between the Analyst and other parts of Machine society as reflected by Smith, so if that turns into something in a hypothetical sequel I'd be intrigued.

There are bots and rogue programs for the sake of token fight scenes, apparently sent out by Smith and the Analyst when they get bored, but nothing so savage as Cypher's betrayal, no Morpheus to rescue from having his brain decoded, no reason to feel any sense of threat when the bots can't hit a brick wall at five paces.

The core problem is that I feel no stakes. Yay, Neo and Trinity are free and have their little Matrix to play in. I guess that all the punching and force-pushing somehow jacked the admin passwords. I'm happy for them, but the story is over now, right? Can we put it to bed?

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 2nd 2022 at 10:40:37 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#431: Jan 2nd 2022 at 10:30:31 AM

I think the situation is not peace at all.

The Suits machines won their Enemy Civil War and destroyed Zion after all.

Hence, liberating Neo is important to start the fight anew.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#432: Jan 2nd 2022 at 10:34:33 AM

Without having seen the movie myself yet, I don't think there will be another sequel after this, as the Box Office has been subpar so far and Keanu himself has both said that he has no interest in starring in one, and that Lana apparently also doesn't want to make one.

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Goku Black
#433: Jan 2nd 2022 at 10:36:29 AM

Show about the machine civil war on HBO max instead?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#434: Jan 2nd 2022 at 10:41:18 AM

As I said earlier, I would be very interested in that.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#435: Jan 2nd 2022 at 10:44:20 AM

Hence, liberating Neo is important to start the fight anew.

There is literally no indication of this in the film. They're liberating Neo because Neo is cool and awesome and sexy. Niobe straight-up calls them out on it.

In fact, he led them to himself by creating the "modal" with a Morpheus-Smith hybrid that would be freed and would then free Neo, all so he could find Trinity and liberate her.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 2nd 2022 at 1:46:41 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#436: Jan 2nd 2022 at 12:19:14 PM

There is literally no indication of this in the film. They're liberating Neo because Neo is cool and awesome and sexy. Niobe straight-up calls them out on it.

In fact, he led them to himself by creating the "modal" with a Morpheus-Smith hybrid that would be freed and would then free Neo, all so he could find Trinity and liberate her.

Yes, because Niobe is in full hiding mode. There's still a Matrix, humanity is still enslaved, and the machines are still up to their old tricks.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#437: Jan 2nd 2022 at 1:02:09 PM

A TV show about a current day aged Jada Plinket-Smith Niobie navigating the the delicate peace the humans have with a machine ragime that's tearing itself apart and deciding to take in synthetics as refugees, jepodizing their peace.

Lots of political intrigue.

Jada does well on TV too so I think she'd be an affordable star.

Edit: [up] it's no different from the end of the third film where the matrix still exists but humans get to choose to leave and are allowed to be left alone. The Analyst just engenined a Matrix no one would want to leave (because of the longing).

Edited by Whowho on Jan 2nd 2022 at 9:04:23 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#438: Jan 2nd 2022 at 1:08:12 PM

Again, Zion was destroyed by the new machines and they hide Io's location.

I think the assumption there's any form of peace is weird.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#439: Jan 2nd 2022 at 2:48:16 PM

Nairobi saying there's peace is probably where I'm getting the confusion from.

The machines just don't seem concerned with wiping the humans out in the current situation.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#440: Jan 2nd 2022 at 3:37:07 PM

"And why did we need to enslave and genocide A.I.s? This is the problem. We're starting from an absurd (or at least extreme) premise to explain why the machines' war against humans was justified.

"

Do we? probably not but it make the conflict between machine and humans more intersting than a terminator esque race for survival.

And there is peace but is also a stage for a new confrontation, Io is better than Zion by a long shot and is exist because the human want it, not because the machine allow it, also the machine have done new trick to keep things as they like.

So a new status quo have form in a way.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#441: Jan 2nd 2022 at 4:05:26 PM

And thus Niobe is completely in the right to think that rescuing Neo is a terrible idea.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#442: Jan 2nd 2022 at 4:16:33 PM

Saving Neo is risky, but it has a practical purpose. Given that the Machines went to the trouble of resurrecting him, housing his pod in a personal heavily guarded tower, and suppressing all his memories as the One, it’s clear they’re using him for some nefarious purpose. A purpose that if they disrupt it could help turn the tide in the war. And it would be wrong to leave him stuck in there if he wants to escape, which his call for help with making a new Morpheus seemed to imply.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#443: Jan 2nd 2022 at 5:48:29 PM

That reminds me:

Meta wise, how come they didn't get Lawrence Fishburne back?

I'm ok with it, but it's a little odd.

One Strip! One Strip!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#444: Jan 2nd 2022 at 7:52:16 PM

Speaking as an author, I might make a guess that Lana thought if Morpheus were alive then there's absolutely no obstacles to our new generation of heroes getting Neo.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#445: Jan 2nd 2022 at 8:58:29 PM

And morpheus was a sort old guard and man of faith, so having him pass is necesary, after all someone have to bite the dust to make time passing.

And Like I said, there is a bit of narrative trickery here, salving trinity is neo goal but since both power the new matrix them saving her become a priority, is a sort of way to have high scene with low stakes.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#446: Jan 3rd 2022 at 3:29:06 AM

Mind you, I would have had Morpheus die but Morpheus-Agent still played by Lawrence.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Voltron64 Since: Jul, 2016
#447: Jan 8th 2022 at 11:44:05 AM

Anbody besides think instead of the RATM cover as the end credits start, they should have played Spybreak by Propellerheads?

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#448: Jan 8th 2022 at 1:43:15 PM

Saw the Movie myself now. "Meta" is probably the most accurate summary, it had a lot of fun with self-depracating humour.

While I wouldn't say that it was bad, it wasn't particularly amazing either. The Action was a major setback from the original Trilogy. The background story was also not developed enough and the absence of Weaving and Fishbourne was thoroughly felt.

My favorite character was probably Neil Patrick Harris as the Analyst, he made for a compelling Big Bad.

I honestly don't know where to rank this movie. The original Matrix is obviously still the best. I even liked the Sequels better than most others. Is it worse than the Sequels? Yes and no. It had many interesting takes, but many just weren't developed enough.

I guess in the end it just tried to pander to Nostalgia a wee bit too much. The Post-Credit Scene legitimately made me laugh. Nice trolling there.

Edited by Forenperser on Jan 8th 2022 at 10:44:08 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#449: Jan 11th 2022 at 2:44:10 PM

I think a lot of people are unduly harsh on Zion for their treatment of Blue Pills. Yes, it's terrible that so many get killed during the revolution but I think we need to remember that humanity is all enslaved and living in an enormous prison camp. Killing in the name of ending slavery is one of those Godzilla Threshold things I think most people agree on.

The Guards may not be agents but Neo and company aren't bulletproof either.

I actually like in some respect that they raise the question because most RL wars don't have nothing but Faceless Goons.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 11th 2022 at 2:48:55 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#450: Jan 11th 2022 at 3:02:17 PM

The difference here is that Les Collaborateurs are pawns of the system, unaware of their victimhood. In real life, most people consciously choose to stand with the status quo because it personally benefits them. Nothing that the "blue pills" in the Matrix choose to do has any bearing on their fate whatsoever.

The metaphor breaks because of the setting it is placed in. Sure, you can say we're all unconscious victims of marketing and propaganda, yadda yadda, but the same is true of the nonconformists. In real life, non-conformism is sold and marketed to just like everything else.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 11th 2022 at 6:04:58 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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