A thread to discuss My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic and the tie-in media.
All of the usual forum rules
apply. In addition, please remember that the thread is discussing a kids' show, and it's primarily focused on the work itself, not the fanfic — in particular, we don't want to see lewdness creeping in.
Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 26th 2024 at 10:24:26 AM
@Wryte: You forgot Impa! For shame.
But seriously, full rule63 would be overkill. I only mentioned Man!Zelda because I'd be curious to see what he looks like.
But yeah, I think female Link would actually be really interesting, for the reasons Wryte mentioned. The general cosmology of the series in no way requires Link to be male, and while there would obviously be some complaints from some sections of the fanbase, I think that as far as fanbases go, they'd be one of the ones who'd be most okay with it.
Reaction Image RepositoryYou know, I got to see a stream of the game and it really doesn't look as bad as people make it out to be. I've definitely seen worse gameplay and clunkier interfaces before.
FE: New Mystery Only Feet 7PM PT Sun, Mon, Fri; Umamusume Haru Arima 7PM PT Wed, Thurs: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshiForget Zelda as a man, picture Ganondorf as a woman. Gives me goosebumps...
I remember I got together with a bunch of people and theorized what the cutscenes in a hypothetical Metroid CD-i game would be like. Wrote up a script and everything. Sadly we didn't know anyone with skillz in animation so we never got them animated.
Why not just make a game with Zelda as the lead?
Because Zelda would result in a radically different game.
Link is first and foremost a swordsman, but any time Zelda has ever used a weapon, it's been a bow. That right there immediately results in a very different game, as the combat has to be built around archery instead of swordsmanship. Let's make an example of the first dungeon in Ocarina of Time, the Great Deku Tree. There are several kinds of enemies in the Great Deku Tree:
- Skulltulas, which cling to the walls and rush you if you're climbing near them.
- Big skulltulas, which hang from the ceiling, drop on top of you, and are invulnerable on one side.
- Deku scrubs, which hide in the ground and spit seeds at you.
- Deku babas, which are plants that lunge at you when you get close.
- Baby ghomas, which are basic melee enemies about half your size.
- And the boss, Queen Ghoma, which you fight by shooting it in the eye when it's on the ceiling and then attacking it with your sword.
With the exception of the ghomas and their queen, all the enemies in the Great Deku Tree are stationary. This presents a good challenge the sword-wielding Link, appropriate for learning the basics of combat with a low level of risk, but they're absolutely trivial for an archer like Zelda, since she can defeat most of them with her basic attack without even entering their attack range. That's not at all to say that a fun and compelling combat system couldn't be built around Zelda and her archery, only that it would be very different from the ones built around Link's swordplay.
The next big difference is that Link is a tool-user, where Zelda is a magician. Navigating dungeons and solving puzzles by use of a wide and varied array of different tools and gadgets is the heart and soul of a Zelda game, and finding and using all those neat tools is one of the funnest parts of the games. Zelda, however, doesn't use tools. It would, of course, be perfectly possible to replace all the tools hidden around the world with spellbooks, teaching Zelda new spells for exploring and solving puzzles. Conceptually, it's no different from Link's tool use. However, unless Zelda's magic suddenly took the form of a Green Lantern ring creating magical constructs, the feel of using those spells would be very different from Link's toolkit. There isn't likely to be as much visual variety to Zelda's spells, and it's going to be harder if not impossible to keep players from asking why she needs to find all these spells instead of coming up with her own, while it's quite simple to excuse Link not having the right tool for a job until he finds it somewhere. And again, this isn't to say a fun and compelling game couldn't be built around Zelda and magic, only that it wouldn't feel the same.
Now, of course, it would be possible to simply make Zelda use a sword and tools instead of a bow and magic in this game, since as previously mentioned, the characters are new incarnations in each game. However, the broad strokes of the characters do carry over from incarnation to incarnation. Zelda has always been a magician and archer in the past, and changing that about her honestly feels like a much bigger alteration to her character than gender flipping Link. Heck, at that point, Zelda is already halfway to being a female Link. The other half being...
The third difference: Zelda always has an immediate narrative value as a princess, usually being the guardian of a relic or possessing some holy power, or something like that, but in every incarnation, Link is a nobody until he becomes the Hero. If he isn't the hero of the story, he has no reason to be in the story. You could argue that Link is important because he is the holder of the Triforce of Courage, but he never starts that way. He becomes the holder of the Triforce through his heroics, he doesn't start with it. The only way it would make sense is if the game begins after Link had already been on the verge of completing his usual adventure, but been captured, leaving Zelda to finish the job, which blatantly smacks of overt "Hey, look! Girls can be heroes, too!" moralizing. Alternatively, if you go the route of making Link the prince and Zelda the nobody, once again you've just turned Zelda halfway into a female Link (all the way if you also went with the sword and toll switch).
So in the end, a game starring Zelda either isn't going to feel like an actual Zelda game (though it could certainly work as a side title, the same as Hyrule Warriors), or is going to basically turn Zelda into a female Link anyway. In that case, I think it's way better to skip the overt contrivances necessary to make Zelda fit into Link's role, and just make the next Link a chick. Besides, making Link's next incarnation a girl also carries the implicit message that Link (and therefore heroes in general) is defined by his actions and courage rather than his gender, while contriving to swap Link and Zelda's roles actually reinforces the idea that they're defined by their genders, and that such role reversals where the girl is the hero and the boy needs rescuing are outside the norm.
@Wryte: You forgot Impa! For shame.
Oh trust me, I ''never'' forget Impa. I just didn't list her since I already but in Saria and Nabooru from that game. :)
edited 10th Jun '14 7:27:27 PM by Wryte
"Adorkable" is now a real word.
This makes me
.
@Wryte: Regarding your first two points, I don't see that as a problem at all. Don't get me wrong, I love the Zelda series, but I don't feel like the series has evolved much since Ocarina, and a huge shakeup to the standard formula could work out really well. Having Zelda as the main character for a game gives an excuse for that shakeup since, like you said, she's a very different character. If the new formula works, there could be a whole side series of Zelda focused games, giving some variety to the series.
As to the third point, you could make Link relevant by having this take place after one of the other games, when he's already established himself as a hero, or hell, just not have him be important. Zelda hasn't been in every game, there's no reason Link has to be.
Generally when people talk about gender flipping characters for the sake of better female representation, I can't help but think that that doesn't really help. The world needs more iconic female roles, but swapping Link or the Doctor or whoever hasn't created one. That character will still be male in most people's eyes, with just a brief female phase. Making Zelda able to hold a game, perhaps even a series, on her own is much more interesting to me than seeing Link be female for one game then go back to being a dude.
On that note: Midna is in Hyrule warriors Nintraindo 2014 get hype get hype.
Birthright: an original web novel about Dragons, the Burdens of Leadership, and Mangoes.@Wryte: I think they should make a spinoff based around Zelda and call it "The Legend of Link".
Speaking of which, has anybody here played Ittle Dew? It's really fun pastiche of the original Legend Of Zelda. It has a great art style, a good sense of humor (the players "fairy companion" is a weasel-like creature called "Tipsy"), and really good puzzle-based gameplay.
Reaction Image RepositoryWell, time for sheep.
I'm hanging out with one of my friends and his friends tonight. One of them has a baby black sheep. It's adorable.
http://h0useb0und.tumblr.com/Generally when people talk about gender flipping characters for the sake of better female representation, I can't help but think that that doesn't really help. The world needs more iconic female roles, but swapping Link or the Doctor or whoever hasn't created one. That character will still be male in most people's eyes, with just a brief female phase. Making Zelda able to hold a game, perhaps even a series, on her own is much more interesting to me than seeing Link be female for one game then go back to being a dude.
I never said anything about doing it to increase female representation. My argument was that making Link a girl in a main series game creates the message that gender is irrelevant to Link's character, and therefore irrelevant to being a hero, or even to the person you are. Link is Link, no matter what chromosomes s/he's packing.
Switching Link and Zelda's roles still just smacks of contrivance to me. I mean, how many times have we seen a show or game with a male protagonist and obligatory female companion who's in constant danger throw in an episode or level where the girl has to save the guy? And how often do they actually make the girl seem less useless by the end? It's just so an overused contrivance to reverse the gender roles for five minutes to go for some cheap girl power that doesn't even last past the end of the episode for the audience, because it's coming on the back of umpteen instances of her being useless, and we know that she's going to go right back to being useless afterward. Such episodes/levels/games just totally fall flat because it's right back to business as usual as soon as it's over, which rather than making the female character seem strong just highlights how weak she (and by extension her entire gender) is by indicating that such scenarios are outside the norm (and often only occurring by virtue of obvious This Looks Like a Job for Aquaman contrivance), or worse, treating the entire scenario as a joke (see Super Princess Peach).
The only way such a role reversal can actually work is if the series' status quo is changed to keep the female character's reversal, or else the episode just becomes a joke even if it was treated seriously, and I somehow doubt that Nintendo is willing to totally give up on rescuing Zelda from Ganondorf or give her an entire spinoff series (and even doing the latter would be negated by continuing to damsel her in the main series, while also reinforcing the notion that the female's series is secondary to the male's).
I am absolutely all for new iconic female characters (hell, if I ever managed to get my foot in the door as a game writer one of the first projects I want to make is a Chrono Trigger inspired RPG with a primarily female PC roster, including a female main character who pulls off a Metroid twist and turns out to have been a transgendered boy all along at the end), but I also think precisely because Link is a world-famous, iconic character and canonically multi-incarnate, gender flipping him while otherwise making the game exactly as they would any other Zelda installment conveys the idea that gender is irrelevant to being a hero, or even to the person you are, in a way that just making a new female hero can't.
today on the Pony Thread: video games and sheep.
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.re: dude in the Zelda Wii U trailer not being Link:
it's actually Link's grandson, Joseph Link.
@ed: thanks for showing me one of the cutest tags on the site.
also, i'm really diggin' this pony's design.
edited 11th Jun '14 12:11:44 AM by crimsonstorm15
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

@Kuroi: I'm sorry, the what games? I think you must be confused, because obviously there's no such thing.