A thread to discuss My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic and the tie-in media.
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apply. In addition, please remember that the thread is discussing a kids' show, and it's primarily focused on the work itself, not the fanfic — in particular, we don't want to see lewdness creeping in.
Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 26th 2024 at 10:24:26 AM
Tonight on the thread: Bat poop.
I put my friend in a coconut! He lives in my hat! Hey, come hang out!Just finished the episode. Overall I really enjoyed it. The song was fun, Flutterbat was adorable in a slightly creepy way, and it was nice to have a slightly more day-to-day sort of episode.
Only real problem is what Seraphem said; it doesn't make much sense for AJ to do a turnaround like that without a good reason. Not to say that she shouldn't be convinced, but I don't think the episode ever really presented a strong case for Fluttershy being right.
@Enlong: That's exactly the problem. My personal view is that while Fluttershy might know more about animals than the rest of the cast, she's not infallible on the matter by any means (see: Philomena, Parasprites), and that combined with the fact that she explicitly says that she's never dealt with fruit bats before (While AJ has) makes me more inclined to side with AJ in this case. Fluttershy has a vague idea of the benefits of the bats, but AJ has experienced the effects of an infestation.
The other thing is that even if Fluttershy's take is completely accurate, it still screws AJ over; even if she gets a better crop of apple trees in the future, if her entire crop gets eaten, there's a real chance of the farm going bankrupt because they have no product to sell. We know from SSCS 6 K that Sweet Apple Acres needs the cider sales to run, and AJ explicitly says that keeping the bats around risks destroying the cider completely, which would likely tank the family business. Fluttershy is basically asking AJ to court bankruptcy so some bats can feed themselves. It doesn't matter how good the apple crop a few years down the road is if the farm goes defunct now.
The other other thing is that Fluttershy is probably working off a more general "cycle of nature" that assumes an ecological balance, which in this case doesn't exist. These trees aren't growing naturally, they were deliberately cultivated, so while in the wild the vampire fruit bats might have a positive effect on the ecosystem, that isn't really relevant. Sweet Apple Acres isn't an ecosystem; it's a business, and AJ has every right to want to defend it from pests.
So yeah, basically I don't accept the premise that Fluttershy would necessarily know best in this situation. AJ's entire livelihood revolves around growing apples, so I would expect her to know better than Fluttershy when it comes to dealing with pests that eat apples. And again, there's precedent for other cast members knowing better than Fluttershy (again, parasprites). It's basically AJ's background in apple cultivation and previous family experience with the pests vs. Fluttershy's (who's admitted to not dealt with these bats before) vague assertion that the fruit bats will be good in the long term.
edited 28th Dec '13 8:01:00 PM by JapaneseTeeth
Reaction Image RepositoryWhich is why they're localizing the population of the bats to a particular square of the orchard. By regulating where the bats can feed, they get the benefits without risking a mass loss of product.
Which is why they're localizing the populaion of the bats to a particular square of the orchard.
edited 28th Dec '13 8:00:21 PM by Enlong
I have a message from another time...There is nothing presented that shows, at all, that whatever benefits keeping them around might have (And that's might since it did not in anyway prove any benefit existed) are worth the real, proven negative effects of them being there. No matter what AJ loses a good chunk of her orchard to build this sanctuary, with no reason to think they would stay there. Meaning she loses trees, forever. For, some vague promise that somehow she'll get better trees later on down the road.. which will be planted and grow at random, without anyway for her to control it.
We see the negative aspects, but at no time actually see any benefit. like JT said, even Fluttershy's "it'll make things better" is assuming a natural cycle. Not a pony controlled one like SAA.
And that still means AJ has now lost a sizable part of her orchard forever, or until they get rid of the bats. For unspecified gains. Will the trees be productive enough to make up for the loss of those trees in the sanctuary? As well as the lost crops during the years it took for the 'better' trees to grow and begin producing fruits? And there is nothing to show how or why the bats will be staying to just that one spot. If the last time they showed up, they ate everything, why are they now only going to stay in that one square?
edited 28th Dec '13 8:07:03 PM by Seraphem
Except for, you know, digging up and replanting the saplings to compatible locations in the orchard.
Or maybe even collecting bat-treated seeds at the end of the day and planting them where they want.
And I don't pretend to know how to herd or corral bats. But they clearly had something set up at the end, there, so I must concede that they know better than I do how to pull it off.
edited 28th Dec '13 8:08:53 PM by Enlong
I have a message from another time...
But, since there is no clue how the hell the bats make the trees 'better' you don't know if they could do that without ruining whatever it was that made them so.
What he said. The episode simply switches from "Fluttershy has a point, but is still in the wrong." to "Fluttershy was completely and totally right" with no reason given for the change.
edited 28th Dec '13 8:10:58 PM by Seraphem
@Enlong: True, except for one problem: There is absolutely no guarantee that the bats will actually stay there as opposed to draining their section dry and then going back to the rest of the orchard. It is a valid possibility that may very well work, but it's still a huge risk for AJ to take because she's basically risking her entire orchard on Fluttershy's statement that the bats won't want to eat more fruit than she allots them. Again, the issue isn't that AJ made the decision, it's that she decided that without any reason other than "Fluttershy says she should". She's betting the farm that Fluttershy knows more about a subject that A. Fluttershy herself admits inexperience with and B. Applejack does have experience with.
The problem is that AJ goes from trusting her own judgement to trusting Fluttershy's despite receiving no new evidence that Fluttershy is right. Unless "I'll turn into a bat and eat the fruit myself!" is an argument.
Here's the info AJ has at the start of the episode:
1. These bats are eating my apples
2. If not dealt with, my orchard will be gone in a few days
3. The last time we had an infestation like this, the farm nearly got wrecked.
4. We have no tangible benefits from the last infestation (aside from knowing to get rid of these things ASAP)
5. Fluttershy (who has never met one of these before) claims that these bats will make the orchard "better", with no explain concerning exactly how this will happen or exactly how great the benefits are.
Based on that info, I'd have to go with AJ on this one because the farm has been infested before and the benefits did not outweigh the problems. Yes, the whole "sanctuary" thing could solve the problem, but she has no way to know if it'll work. At the end of the episode, Applejack has precisely one new piece of information:
6. If Twilight Sparkle screws up a particular spell in a certain way, Fluttershy becomes a fruit vampire.
Which is an interesting piece of information, but not one that has anything to do with the question of "Do I risk having these bats around?"
edited 28th Dec '13 8:18:33 PM by JapaneseTeeth
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If the seeds grow to be more productive trees after the bats spit them out, wherever they may land, then it must be in the saliva. That's the constant. So, saplings grown from spat seeds or just the treated seeds themselves, can be used effectively.
edited 28th Dec '13 8:10:49 PM by Enlong
I have a message from another time...So exactly how are they keeping these bats isolated by the end of the episode? AJ seems to imply that the vampire fruit bats are too aggressive to just let be like the other fruit bats and we see that the only thing surrounding the sanctuary is a three foot fence so. . .did they just clip all of their wings or something?
Oh please. This is infinitely more exciting then the sockpuppet parade that usually happens around now.
edited 28th Dec '13 8:16:06 PM by Mio
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Well, if you know better than I do about what Fluttershy was going on about, then I suppose I am wrong. I mean, I was defering to her knowledge of Equestrian fauna (not Everfree Forest breeds as much, sure (except for Cockatrices)).
But you don't have any more info than I do, do you?
I mean, it's not even as though Applejack's counterpoint was that the benefits wouldn't happen. It was that spending time building the shelter would give the bats more time to eat more of the orchard.
Amusingly, Twilight's idea did help. Eventually. By making the bats starve themselves in the intervening time.
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Considering this is Equestria? They probably sat the bats down and explained the situation to them.
edited 28th Dec '13 8:21:10 PM by Enlong
I have a message from another time...@Enlong: 2 things:
1. All we can do is go off of the info that's actually in the episode. Stuff like "their saliva speeds up growth" is just speculation.
2. As I pointed out earlier, Fluttershy has been blatantly wrong about Equestrian fauna before. "Because Fluttershy said so" is not compelling evidence on its own, especially when other sources with more direct experience say otherwise.
The situation as shown in the episode basically boils down to this. Applejack can choose between either her Grandmother's account of what happened the last time the bats invaded, or she can go with Fluttershy's vague and untested statement that "the bats will make things better". Personally, the first option is much better supported, and if AJ is going to switch sides, she needs more of a reason.
Also, I just want to clarify that you may be entirely right that the bats do have more benefits. That's not what I'm arguing. My complaint is that AJ changes her mind despite not being given any compelling reason to. She decides to side with Fluttershy because.... Fluttershy turned into a bat?
But that was my only real complaint, and otherwise I really enjoyed it. Although it was kinda weird that the rest of the Apple Family was completely absent.
edited 28th Dec '13 8:25:05 PM by JapaneseTeeth
Reaction Image Repository1: It's speculation, yeah. Specifically, I'm speculating on the process by which the benefits occur. Not whether the benefits happen. That point I'm accepting from the episode.
2: They didn't say otherwise. Applejack said nothing about the bats helping the seeds. She was talking about how spending time on another plan was losing them more apples. Also, this episode was Applejack's first bit of direct experience with the bats, but that's tangential to the point.
edited 28th Dec '13 8:25:02 PM by Enlong
I have a message from another time...Okay, I think this is the trouble spot:
Now, on this I agree. There are benefits. The question isn't whether or not we agree that the benefits outweigh the problems. The question is whether Applejack would think so. The issue is that at the beginning of the episode she doesn't accept Fluttershy's statement that she'll benefit. Whether or not we agree with her doesn't matter. The problem is this:
At the end of the episode she agrees with Fluttershy despite not having any more relevant information. Her decision is based on bat!Fluttershy, which is utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand. There needed to be some sort of reason for her to suddenly agree with Fluttershy.
Reaction Image RepositoryHey guys. Sorry I've been gone all day, I couldn't find the episode ANYWHERE. I looked it up on 3 different websites, and finally found it on dailymotion half an hour ago.
That was... that was a weird one. So, what are the general thoughts on it?
http://h0useb0und.tumblr.com/

They make the trees better by making them grow into trees that produce more. I thought that particular point as pretty clear. What was unclear was by what process do the bats make the new trees more productive.
As for short term vs long term? In the short term, they give the bats some apples. In the long term, the bats help grow apple trees that produce more, which means more apples and more profit.
edited 28th Dec '13 7:56:22 PM by Enlong
I have a message from another time...