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My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (Live Reactions & Discussion)

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A thread to discuss My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic and the tie-in media.

All of the usual forum rules apply. In addition, please remember that the thread is discussing a kids' show, and it's primarily focused on the work itself, not the fanfic — in particular, we don't want to see lewdness creeping in.

     Original OP text 
I don't know WHAT the Hell happened (I blame shenanigans) but we're going to start from scratch. Post your feels for this awesome show again! Naow!

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 26th 2024 at 10:24:26 AM

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#33201: Dec 28th 2013 at 7:55:40 PM

They make the trees better by making them grow into trees that produce more. I thought that particular point as pretty clear. What was unclear was by what process do the bats make the new trees more productive.

As for short term vs long term? In the short term, they give the bats some apples. In the long term, the bats help grow apple trees that produce more, which means more apples and more profit.

edited 28th Dec '13 7:56:22 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
Sydxelia Are you into... Vinyl? from Cranberry World Since: Nov, 2010
Are you into... Vinyl?
#33202: Dec 28th 2013 at 7:55:48 PM

Tonight on the thread: Bat poop.

I put my friend in a coconut! He lives in my hat! Hey, come hang out!
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#33203: Dec 28th 2013 at 7:56:56 PM

Just finished the episode. Overall I really enjoyed it. The song was fun, Flutterbat was adorable in a slightly creepy way, and it was nice to have a slightly more day-to-day sort of episode.

Only real problem is what Seraphem said; it doesn't make much sense for AJ to do a turnaround like that without a good reason. Not to say that she shouldn't be convinced, but I don't think the episode ever really presented a strong case for Fluttershy being right.

@Enlong: That's exactly the problem. My personal view is that while Fluttershy might know more about animals than the rest of the cast, she's not infallible on the matter by any means (see: Philomena, Parasprites), and that combined with the fact that she explicitly says that she's never dealt with fruit bats before (While AJ has) makes me more inclined to side with AJ in this case. Fluttershy has a vague idea of the benefits of the bats, but AJ has experienced the effects of an infestation.

The other thing is that even if Fluttershy's take is completely accurate, it still screws AJ over; even if she gets a better crop of apple trees in the future, if her entire crop gets eaten, there's a real chance of the farm going bankrupt because they have no product to sell. We know from SSCS 6 K that Sweet Apple Acres needs the cider sales to run, and AJ explicitly says that keeping the bats around risks destroying the cider completely, which would likely tank the family business. Fluttershy is basically asking AJ to court bankruptcy so some bats can feed themselves. It doesn't matter how good the apple crop a few years down the road is if the farm goes defunct now.

The other other thing is that Fluttershy is probably working off a more general "cycle of nature" that assumes an ecological balance, which in this case doesn't exist. These trees aren't growing naturally, they were deliberately cultivated, so while in the wild the vampire fruit bats might have a positive effect on the ecosystem, that isn't really relevant. Sweet Apple Acres isn't an ecosystem; it's a business, and AJ has every right to want to defend it from pests.

So yeah, basically I don't accept the premise that Fluttershy would necessarily know best in this situation. AJ's entire livelihood revolves around growing apples, so I would expect her to know better than Fluttershy when it comes to dealing with pests that eat apples. And again, there's precedent for other cast members knowing better than Fluttershy (again, parasprites). It's basically AJ's background in apple cultivation and previous family experience with the pests vs. Fluttershy's (who's admitted to not dealt with these bats before) vague assertion that the fruit bats will be good in the long term.

edited 28th Dec '13 8:01:00 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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Starscream759 Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: In denial
#33204: Dec 28th 2013 at 7:58:09 PM

@Syd And THIS is why I don't analyse stuff. Cuz we end up in heated arguments like this.

edited 28th Dec '13 7:58:41 PM by Starscream759

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#33205: Dec 28th 2013 at 7:59:17 PM

if her entire crop gets eaten, there's a real chance of the farm going bankrupt because they have no product to sell.

Which is why they're localizing the population of the bats to a particular square of the orchard. By regulating where the bats can feed, they get the benefits without risking a mass loss of product.

The other other thing is that Fluttershy is probably working off a more general "cycle of nature" that assumes an ecological balance, which in this case doesn't exist. These trees aren't growing naturally, they were deliberately cultivated, so while in the wild the vampire fruit bats might have a positive effect on the ecosystem, that isn't really relevant.

Which is why they're localizing the populaion of the bats to a particular square of the orchard.

edited 28th Dec '13 8:00:21 PM by Enlong

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Seraphem Since: Oct, 2009
#33206: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:04:01 PM

There is nothing presented that shows, at all, that whatever benefits keeping them around might have (And that's might since it did not in anyway prove any benefit existed) are worth the real, proven negative effects of them being there. No matter what AJ loses a good chunk of her orchard to build this sanctuary, with no reason to think they would stay there. Meaning she loses trees, forever. For, some vague promise that somehow she'll get better trees later on down the road.. which will be planted and grow at random, without anyway for her to control it.

We see the negative aspects, but at no time actually see any benefit. like JT said, even Fluttershy's "it'll make things better" is assuming a natural cycle. Not a pony controlled one like SAA.

[up]And that still means AJ has now lost a sizable part of her orchard forever, or until they get rid of the bats. For unspecified gains. Will the trees be productive enough to make up for the loss of those trees in the sanctuary? As well as the lost crops during the years it took for the 'better' trees to grow and begin producing fruits? And there is nothing to show how or why the bats will be staying to just that one spot. If the last time they showed up, they ate everything, why are they now only going to stay in that one square?

edited 28th Dec '13 8:07:03 PM by Seraphem

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#33207: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:06:52 PM

which will be planted and grow at random, without anyway for her to control it.

Except for, you know, digging up and replanting the saplings to compatible locations in the orchard.

Or maybe even collecting bat-treated seeds at the end of the day and planting them where they want.

And I don't pretend to know how to herd or corral bats. But they clearly had something set up at the end, there, so I must concede that they know better than I do how to pull it off.

edited 28th Dec '13 8:08:53 PM by Enlong

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Seraphem Since: Oct, 2009
#33208: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:08:17 PM

[up] But, since there is no clue how the hell the bats make the trees 'better' you don't know if they could do that without ruining whatever it was that made them so.

[down]What he said. The episode simply switches from "Fluttershy has a point, but is still in the wrong." to "Fluttershy was completely and totally right" with no reason given for the change.

edited 28th Dec '13 8:10:58 PM by Seraphem

JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#33209: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:09:11 PM

@Enlong: True, except for one problem: There is absolutely no guarantee that the bats will actually stay there as opposed to draining their section dry and then going back to the rest of the orchard. It is a valid possibility that may very well work, but it's still a huge risk for AJ to take because she's basically risking her entire orchard on Fluttershy's statement that the bats won't want to eat more fruit than she allots them. Again, the issue isn't that AJ made the decision, it's that she decided that without any reason other than "Fluttershy says she should". She's betting the farm that Fluttershy knows more about a subject that A. Fluttershy herself admits inexperience with and B. Applejack does have experience with.

The problem is that AJ goes from trusting her own judgement to trusting Fluttershy's despite receiving no new evidence that Fluttershy is right. Unless "I'll turn into a bat and eat the fruit myself!" is an argument. tongue

Here's the info AJ has at the start of the episode:

1. These bats are eating my apples

2. If not dealt with, my orchard will be gone in a few days

3. The last time we had an infestation like this, the farm nearly got wrecked.

4. We have no tangible benefits from the last infestation (aside from knowing to get rid of these things ASAP)

5. Fluttershy (who has never met one of these before) claims that these bats will make the orchard "better", with no explain concerning exactly how this will happen or exactly how great the benefits are.

Based on that info, I'd have to go with AJ on this one because the farm has been infested before and the benefits did not outweigh the problems. Yes, the whole "sanctuary" thing could solve the problem, but she has no way to know if it'll work. At the end of the episode, Applejack has precisely one new piece of information:

6. If Twilight Sparkle screws up a particular spell in a certain way, Fluttershy becomes a fruit vampire.

Which is an interesting piece of information, but not one that has anything to do with the question of "Do I risk having these bats around?"

edited 28th Dec '13 8:18:33 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#33210: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:10:37 PM

[up][up] If the seeds grow to be more productive trees after the bats spit them out, wherever they may land, then it must be in the saliva. That's the constant. So, saplings grown from spat seeds or just the treated seeds themselves, can be used effectively.

edited 28th Dec '13 8:10:49 PM by Enlong

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Seraphem Since: Oct, 2009
#33211: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:12:03 PM

[up] key word. "If". Again without giving an actual explanation for how, you don't know what is actually possible.

Sydxelia Are you into... Vinyl? from Cranberry World Since: Nov, 2010
Are you into... Vinyl?
#33212: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:13:00 PM

I put my friend in a coconut! He lives in my hat! Hey, come hang out!
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#33213: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:14:32 PM

So exactly how are they keeping these bats isolated by the end of the episode? AJ seems to imply that the vampire fruit bats are too aggressive to just let be like the other fruit bats and we see that the only thing surrounding the sanctuary is a three foot fence so. . .did they just clip all of their wings or something?

[up]Oh please. This is infinitely more exciting then the sockpuppet parade that usually happens around now.

edited 28th Dec '13 8:16:06 PM by Mio

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#33214: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:14:37 PM

Technically, AJ doesn't have personal experience with the bats, either. She's going off Granny Smith's stories of the last time they were around. Still, I do have to side with AJ here. That said, it barely even bothers me. This episode is totally overflowing with stuff I adore.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#33215: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:15:54 PM

[up][up][up][up]

Well, if you know better than I do about what Fluttershy was going on about, then I suppose I am wrong. I mean, I was defering to her knowledge of Equestrian fauna (not Everfree Forest breeds as much, sure (except for Cockatrices)).

But you don't have any more info than I do, do you?

I mean, it's not even as though Applejack's counterpoint was that the benefits wouldn't happen. It was that spending time building the shelter would give the bats more time to eat more of the orchard.

Amusingly, Twilight's idea did help. Eventually. By making the bats starve themselves in the intervening time.

[up][up] Considering this is Equestria? They probably sat the bats down and explained the situation to them. tongue

edited 28th Dec '13 8:21:10 PM by Enlong

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OrionAurora Constellation from Andromeda Galaxy Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
Constellation
#33216: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:20:24 PM

@Mio: Hay!

I honestly don't know much about vampire bats to help with this conversation.

We are all made of star stuff. Very, very weird star stuff.
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#33217: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:21:10 PM

@Enlong: 2 things:

1. All we can do is go off of the info that's actually in the episode. Stuff like "their saliva speeds up growth" is just speculation.

2. As I pointed out earlier, Fluttershy has been blatantly wrong about Equestrian fauna before. "Because Fluttershy said so" is not compelling evidence on its own, especially when other sources with more direct experience say otherwise.

The situation as shown in the episode basically boils down to this. Applejack can choose between either her Grandmother's account of what happened the last time the bats invaded, or she can go with Fluttershy's vague and untested statement that "the bats will make things better". Personally, the first option is much better supported, and if AJ is going to switch sides, she needs more of a reason.

Also, I just want to clarify that you may be entirely right that the bats do have more benefits. That's not what I'm arguing. My complaint is that AJ changes her mind despite not being given any compelling reason to. She decides to side with Fluttershy because.... Fluttershy turned into a bat?

But that was my only real complaint, and otherwise I really enjoyed it. Although it was kinda weird that the rest of the Apple Family was completely absent.

edited 28th Dec '13 8:25:05 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
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#33218: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:22:01 PM

1: It's speculation, yeah. Specifically, I'm speculating on the process by which the benefits occur. Not whether the benefits happen. That point I'm accepting from the episode.

2: They didn't say otherwise. Applejack said nothing about the bats helping the seeds. She was talking about how spending time on another plan was losing them more apples. Also, this episode was Applejack's first bit of direct experience with the bats, but that's tangential to the point.

edited 28th Dec '13 8:25:02 PM by Enlong

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Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#33219: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:22:21 PM

[up][up][up][up]You mean the thing that Fluttershy tried to do in the opening act, which failed?

edited 28th Dec '13 8:23:23 PM by Mio

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#33220: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:24:04 PM

[up] The bats are also shown reading books. I'm having trouble pinning down their exact intelligence level.

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Tealove I like cozy chats. from The Tea Cozy Since: Mar, 2012
I like cozy chats.
#33221: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:24:49 PM

Oh please. This is infinitely more exciting then the sockpuppet parade that usually happens around now.

What is a "sockpuppet"? I must say, it doesn't sound very sanitary.

I sell tea and tea accessories.
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#33222: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:27:07 PM

[up][up]I was speaking less about their intelligence and more about how they were just plain uncooperative.

JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#33223: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:28:29 PM

Okay, I think this is the trouble spot:

It's speculation, yeah. Specifically, I'm speculating on the process by which the benefits occur. Not whether the benefits happen. That point I'm accepting from the episode.

Now, on this I agree. There are benefits. The question isn't whether or not we agree that the benefits outweigh the problems. The question is whether Applejack would think so. The issue is that at the beginning of the episode she doesn't accept Fluttershy's statement that she'll benefit. Whether or not we agree with her doesn't matter. The problem is this:

At the end of the episode she agrees with Fluttershy despite not having any more relevant information. Her decision is based on bat!Fluttershy, which is utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand. There needed to be some sort of reason for her to suddenly agree with Fluttershy.

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IkeAndMike Exists for some reason from Earth Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
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#33224: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:30:30 PM

Hey guys. Sorry I've been gone all day, I couldn't find the episode ANYWHERE. I looked it up on 3 different websites, and finally found it on dailymotion half an hour ago.

That was... that was a weird one. So, what are the general thoughts on it?

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#33225: Dec 28th 2013 at 8:30:44 PM

[up][up] Ah. I see. Well, I'm glad we got that bit of miscommunication cleared up.

edited 28th Dec '13 8:30:54 PM by Enlong

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