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My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (Live Reactions & Discussion)

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A thread to discuss My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic and the tie-in media.

All of the usual forum rules apply. In addition, please remember that the thread is discussing a kids' show, and it's primarily focused on the work itself, not the fanfic — in particular, we don't want to see lewdness creeping in.

     Original OP text 
I don't know WHAT the Hell happened (I blame shenanigans) but we're going to start from scratch. Post your feels for this awesome show again! Naow!

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 26th 2024 at 10:24:26 AM

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#204176: Feb 24th 2022 at 8:11:17 PM

So should the Storm Kings Memetic Loser and Never Live It Down entries be moved to Informed Attribute as fans don't portray/exaggerate him as inept and his failure to live up to his alleged reputation as conquerer is legitimately a thing/issue? My Little Pony: The Movie Prequel showed him pragmatic enough to justify his effectiveness, but that's at odds with his movie portrayal.

On the subject of The Movie and my prior question about Queen Novo, I ask if Novo might quality as Unintentionally Unsympathetic as she polled as the least popular Movie character despite being portrayed as a Big Good and even if her actions (as mentioned under my prior entry to move to Fourth Wall Myopia) were justifiable made her seem morally neutral as opposed to good. Consider:

  • The Storm Kings Informed Attribute threat, with his army bested by just 13 ragtags, made Novo running, hiding, and unwillingness to help seem unnecessarily cowardly given how seemingly easy it would have been to stand and fight.
  • That Celestia immediately thought of them when invaded seemed to imply she was under obligation/expectation to help them yet was inexplicably hostile toward them. (The Stormy Road to Canterlot gives a good reason, but Novo fails to bring it up when defending her actions and it's unclear how canon it is.)
  • That Novo never got to do more than be a obstruction to the heroes, even if her actions were pragmatically justifiable (note the pragmatism Twilight was treated as wrong for), meant many felt she didn't contribute enough to deserve her happy ending.

She has fans/defenders (common one being her husband was killed when her land was invaded, but that's just fan speculation as opposed to anything in-work), but her being a Base-Breaking Character when she was meant to be a highly promoted Big Good means it didn't work out as intended. I wouldn't say it was enough for UU if not for the poll putting her last in popularity despite her intended roll. Thoughts?

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#204177: Feb 25th 2022 at 3:18:15 AM

I think the plot point with Celestia turning to Novo was just poorly written, since it was simply an excuse to introduce a new species to the setting. I think the implication is supposed to be that Celestia sees them as the last viable option, even though the movie never really justifies that.

As for the Storm King, I think the movie leaves open the reading that Tempest Shadow is The Woman Behind The Man, and that she is the real reason the Storm King has been so successful in his conquests.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#204178: Feb 25th 2022 at 1:40:30 PM

[up]That's Hyper-Competent Sidekick, as The Woman Behind the Man would be her commanding/manipulating him.

Anyway, this lead to the problem that the expanded universe stuff meant to fix the shortcomings of the movie was so at odds with it and each other the fixes didn't stick (not even factoring in their dubious canon status to those who cared for such fixes). Then the show canon clashes as Spring Breakdown was caused by the Storm Kings loose magic when the point of the movie was he had none and the hippogriffs treating Twilight as a hero violates Offscreen Inertia.

I'm moving the Storm Kings Never Live It Down and Memetic Loser to Informed Ability as it's not fan exaggeration but a legit issue. And for Novo add Unintentionally Unsympathetic and mover her NLID to Fourth Wall Myopia. Any last objections?

storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#204179: Feb 26th 2022 at 6:51:19 AM

Post of the Week #3495

Last Roundup is one of my favorite episodes because it's right. It makes perfect sense for AJ to react how she did. And the others are right to worry about her like they did. She's not one to lie or go back on her promises, so they knew something had to be up to prevent her from returning home like that. Cherry Jubilee is one of my favorite single episode characters, Dodge Junction was interesting, and there isn't really a single scene that I have a hard time remembering.* I have a feeling I talk about how much I like Last Roundup a lot. e: You're asleep now. Bluh.

Posted by Swasfews on Fri, 10th Aug '12 10:17:22 PM - Post #267710 in the old thread

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WarriorsGate (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#204180: Feb 27th 2022 at 4:33:06 PM

In Ask The Tropers, I brought up an AssPull for the G5 film that got deleted, and a mod requested that I workshop it here.

  • Ass Pull: Seemingly subverted, but then played straight at the last minute. Sunny stares at a stained glass window for five seconds and gets an idea without any basis in fact — not even a throwaway line it was written in her father's journal, a la Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade — that if she puts several crystals she's never heard of together, it'll somehow bring all the magic back. She then decides to make these PlotCoupons the entire basis of her quest. When they fail to work the first time, she gets very discouraged despite having no proof whatsoever it would do anything. When they fail to work the second time, she concludes It's the Journey That Counts and implies the pony tribes can't rely on magic Plot Coupons to instantly heal their divide; they will need to come to a place of mutual understanding and trust. But once she makes her speech, the crystals immediately glow, zap her into an alicorn, and bring magic back to Equestria all at once, meaning the idea she pulled completely out of her ass was 100% correct the whole time.

The main point of contention was that Ass Pull is YMMV, which cannot be played with. I don't agree with that — the page lists objective traits that make a work qualify, which probably predates it being moved to YMMV — but whatever. That's a debate for a different thread.

Thoughts?

storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#204181: Feb 27th 2022 at 8:19:20 PM

I don't think any of that qualifies as Ass Pull.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#204182: Feb 27th 2022 at 8:22:25 PM

[up]That sound like poorly set up giving Sunny's Bat Deduction to make the conclusion, but it's not out of nowhere. The last part is consistent with level of friendship powered Deus ex Machina in the series so also not out of nowhere.

ATT removed this.

  • Never Live It Down: Discord being behind all the villains' actions has garnered a lot of backlash against him. This is despite his using villains to test the heroes being identical to what Princess Celestia had done throughout the series, this is just the first time it backfired.note  Also that Discord was wholly well-intentioned unlike his prior moments. He planned to be a safety net to keep the villains from being too dangerous, the arrogance that led to this disaster is a well-established part of his character. He had a Heroes' Frontier Step risking his own life to help fix this the following episode. The backlash he got over King Sombra destroying the Elements/Tree of Harmony tends to overlook that was NOT part of the deal made with Sombra, Discord showed them they didn't need the Tree or Elements to use their power, and that Discord was never shown aware the Tree was sapient. His plan also ended up working in the end.

It was removed citing "This doesn't seem to fit the trope, since it doesn't argue that this has become the only thing people remember about the character. It also comes off as Draco in Leather Pants, as it's trying to whitewash everything Discord did, even though the episode portrays him as wrong."

Thoughts? On one hand we've agreed to cut many series NLID moments as contentious but not defining fan interoperation of the character. On the other has it effected fan interpretation of him? Is it NLID because it's effected it to the point fans are ignoring that he did redeeming himself afterward and nuance to the situation? If that's not NLID what would fans ignoring such go under?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Feb 27th 2022 at 8:23:16 AM

Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#204183: Feb 27th 2022 at 9:42:15 PM

Discord's actions in the finale are probably one of the most defining things about him due to the controversy it caused, so that by itself would be accurate. The problem is the entry didn't make that case, and it focused more on defending Discord from all criticism and saying he didn't do anything wrong.

Edited by Javertshark13 on Feb 27th 2022 at 12:51:18 PM

storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#204184: Feb 27th 2022 at 9:50:44 PM

I don't hang out in the fandom much, but it's very difficult to imagine the last season of all things overshadowing his character.

NLD isn't just about a character getting stuck with the Idiot Ball once or twice. It's about a moment that results in Fanon-induced flanderization, and there's no way that could happen to Discord.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#204185: Feb 27th 2022 at 9:52:33 PM

Have you seen the last season?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#204186: Feb 27th 2022 at 10:23:16 PM

The Storm King is, by his own admission, a paper tiger. He coasts on reputation. He's done an effective job selling himself as a fearsome and terrifying force to be reckoned with, but lacks any sort of actual power to back that up. It's his entire motive for invading Equestria to begin with.

"Here's the deal. I'm in the middle of a big re-brand here. 'The Storm King' is tracking well as 'intensely intimidating', but you know what? I need to back it up. You know what I need to back it up with? A storm! That would be great! You promised me magic that could control the elements, and right now, I'm holding a what? A branch. A twig. Bleh!"

He lays it all out right there. His branding has written checks that he has no ability to actually cash. He needs Tempest's plan to fix that before anyone realizes how powerless he actually is.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 27th 2022 at 10:23:51 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#204187: Feb 27th 2022 at 11:57:54 PM

Ass Pull is about plot twists, and Sunny solving a puzzle in a less than convincing way is not a plot twist, although it is still not done very well.

I think Bat Deduction is a much better fit: she solves the puzzle by making jumps in logic about how to solve it. The solution is just not set up very well.

Edited by Redmess on Feb 27th 2022 at 8:58:47 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#204188: Feb 28th 2022 at 6:40:48 AM

Have you seen the last season?

Yes

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
WarriorsGate (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#204189: Feb 28th 2022 at 8:14:12 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up]

What happened in G4 isn't really relevant though, since ANG is tonally more down to Earth and the writing is generally more sophisticated, to the point that it would've been a neat subversion if there wasn't some World-Healing Wave that instantly solved all their problems.

But, looking at Bat Deduction, that also describes Sunny's initial leap of logic well enough.

[up][up]

The page for Ass Pull starts with a quote about Treknobabble, then it talks about plot twists, then it just says any "plot-critical detail", and then later it says they don't need to have any impact on the plot and can be played for laughs. It reads like a page that's been sloppily rewritten over a decade by people who aren't on the same page about what it means.

Edited by WarriorsGate on Feb 28th 2022 at 8:22:29 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#204190: Feb 28th 2022 at 8:32:09 AM

Sounds like it needs a cleanup, then. I'll bring it up in the Trope Description Improvement Drive.

Also, I think it is a bit early to make a call on whether the new show is more down to earth and sophisticated.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#204191: Feb 28th 2022 at 11:43:16 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]Good point. Would Informed Ability fit his army better (as the one time they face opposition they're so bested so easily it's unbelievable they were ever effective enough to be the threat presented)? I have some similar thoughts regarding the Pony of Shadows for later.

For Discord, the argument for NLID not applying is that it's not about their popularity with fans, but how fans portray him. NLID would mean fanon flanderizing him to regularly making such poor decisions and regression on his redemption. That the backlash is closer to fans rejecting it is the opposite of this.

Signature Scene (which can be a bad thing if the most defining/remembered thing is its low points) might be the better fit as it is a the most defining and talked about make-or-break moment of the finale since overshadowing anything else unfortunately. (Overshadowed by Controversy doesn't apply as I asked it’s cleanup which said it's not visible/an issue outside the fandom enough to count.) Move the arguments for mutating factors to Broken Base if not already there?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Feb 28th 2022 at 12:39:31 PM

WarriorsGate (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#204192: Feb 28th 2022 at 12:24:28 PM

[up][up]

I didn't say anything about the series, only the movie. Though since Gillian Berrow is both the film's scriptwriter and the series showrunner, I doubt it'll be that different. She always struck me as Amy K. Rogers 2.0 — the one who sneaks in the adult references and seems to want to deal with more mature themes than your typical kiddie fare.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#204193: Feb 28th 2022 at 1:37:55 PM

Sure, but she won't be the only writer on the show proper.

Is she going to be the next Lauren Faust?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#204194: Feb 28th 2022 at 2:01:57 PM

[up][up]Regardless of the maturity/tone of the G5 vs. G4, it is set in the same universe so unless shown/stated otherwise has the same mechanics.

The story was about bringing back the magic that made friendship fueled Deus ex Machina a fundamental part of the setting, so it's not out of nowhere even if the characters didn't know about it.

Anyway I'll cut the Storm Kings Memetic Loser and NLID moving the issues to his army under Informed Ability, and move the Discord issue to Signature Scene and Broken Base (if already there adding any points not currently covered). Any objections?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Feb 28th 2022 at 2:02:13 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#204195: Feb 28th 2022 at 2:06:20 PM

[up] The point was not about the plot point about magic coming out of nowhere, it was that Sunny deduces this out of nowhere. She just sort of reaches that conclusion without any prompting or hints from the movie.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
WarriorsGate (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#204196: Feb 28th 2022 at 2:43:50 PM

[up][up][up]

The article I read stated "developed for television by", so she is the chief architect of the 3D series.

[up][up]

Based on the film, I actually don't think they take place in the same universe. I suspect they'll reveal FIM is the sanitized, Broad Strokes version of "the true" history Argyle used as bedtime stories for his daughter. That's why it has more simple and obvious morality, Schizo Tech, and why G4 looks like the toys he made as opposed to the G5 designs.

That is definitely YMMV at this point, though.

Still, while I think it would've been a good subversion to reveal that in the real world — as opposed to Argyle's fairy tales — there are no WorldHealingWaves that magically solve all problems, it would not be an Ass Pull if it had been properly setup how Sunny knew that it would happen.

[up]

It's especially egregious since she has her father's journal with her. All it would've taken is one throwaway line that father researched the legend, and the problem is solved. It would've been even stronger dramatically since she's literally trying to prove her father was right by uniting the crystals, but in the end her father's journal is irrelevant.

Edited by WarriorsGate on Feb 28th 2022 at 2:44:23 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#204197: Feb 28th 2022 at 2:51:39 PM

Agreed, it's a bit curious they didn't use such an obvious plot trinket.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#204198: Feb 28th 2022 at 3:34:32 PM

The movie really felt like it needed an extra... I dunno, like a few more minutes, if only to fill out a few points.

Wake me up at your own risk.
WarriorsGate (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#204199: Mar 1st 2022 at 1:26:50 PM

Looking back through the recap pages, pretty much every episode has a Broken Base entry. When the episodes aired, people rushed out to document whatever a handful of people were complaining about on Equestria Daily, and now it's just sitting there, preserved like a little time capsule of fandom drama. Very few — if any — meet the criteria for notability.

Should I get some kind of consensus on this, or can I just start removing this shit like a roto-rooter?

On a related note, I'm tempted to leave a note saying "If you didn't like it, write a review instead", but I don't see a review button for recap pages anymore. Was that removed?

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#204200: Mar 1st 2022 at 1:33:54 PM

For such a sweeping change, you'll want to run it by the broken base clean-up thread.

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