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My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (Live Reactions & Discussion)

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A thread to discuss My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic and the tie-in media.

All of the usual forum rules apply. In addition, please remember that the thread is discussing a kids' show, and it's primarily focused on the work itself, not the fanfic — in particular, we don't want to see lewdness creeping in.

     Original OP text 
I don't know WHAT the Hell happened (I blame shenanigans) but we're going to start from scratch. Post your feels for this awesome show again! Naow!

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 26th 2024 at 10:24:26 AM

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#203726: Dec 2nd 2021 at 7:00:27 PM

[up]Then why was Sunset Shimmer's redemption so well received?

There are enough well received redemptions in fiction that it is not innately a "blight". Starlight is an exception because it was too disconnected from what made her a villain.

If the difference is Sunset wag a meh villain and Starlight a compelling one, that means it's less an issue of the redemption than the waste of the well received villain, which changes the conversation about this issue.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 2nd 2021 at 7:04:43 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#203727: Dec 2nd 2021 at 7:59:08 PM

Sunset's redemption was well received because it happened in a movie full of killer musical numbers, and because the writers ripped out Sunset's personality between movies and replaced her with a carbon copy of a more popular protagonist. The Sunset Shimmer of Rainbow Rocks onwards bears absolutely no resemblance to the Sunset Shimmer of the original Equestria Girls film.

Rainbow Rocks Sunset is basically a brand new character, and the fact that everyone's being so mean to this lovable, well-meaning, and utterly flawless sweetheart makes her instantly sympathetic and gets everyone cheering for her. The plot of RR isn't, "Will Sunset change?" She already has changed. She did a complete 180 offscreen. Instead, the plot of the movie is, "Will Sunset be forgiven?"

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fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#203728: Dec 2nd 2021 at 8:02:06 PM

...I should really get to watching the rest of the Equestria Girls stuff. I'm still at Rainbow Rocks, like, "Twilight arrives at the Human World" early.

Especially since I'm still thinking about that Equestria Girls/Danganronpa crossover.

Edited by fredhot16 on Dec 2nd 2021 at 8:03:23 AM

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VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#203729: Dec 2nd 2021 at 8:35:02 PM

This tweet thread was recently posted on Twitter that talks about MLP and it's attempt at representing black and indigenous people with zebras and buffalo.

However once it was done, I would have liked if it was expanded upon. Maybe explore more of the buffalo culture, or do more with zecora and other zebras.

I think Hasbro got kind of embarrassed as the years went on and quietly shelved the idea of doing any further exploration.

Then you get the Student Six, and you can see how they kind of went for "safer" non-pony creatures without distinct ties to real-world cultures and people. The Yaks and griffons are still vaguely East European but is still nice and indistinct.

like the student six, as my FBI-worthy obsession with Smolder shows, but I still get upset thinking about the missed opportunity redeeming those old stereotypes represents. Much in the same way Derpy went from blatantly offensive to disabled people to more of a ditzy dame.

It is my firm belief that you can make something meaningful out of even the most trite stereotypes.

Instead Hasbro chose not to do that and instead decided to pretend the buffalo and zebras never existed, isolating and ignoring zecora for most of the show. Cowardly.

Then we get what? An exploration of her homeland filled with multicolored captain planet OCs in the comics? Nahhh, I'm mad about it. I'm STILL mad about it. Its liberal cowardice to make a stereotype and then pretend it never happened.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#203730: Dec 2nd 2021 at 8:39:00 PM

[up]I have seen a lot of fanart that depicts Zecora as a black woman-well, more like an "African" woman, with some of the trappings you'd expect from that.

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Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#203731: Dec 3rd 2021 at 12:31:02 AM

Well, no surprises there, given how aggressively traditionally African Zecora is, especially in her early episodes, to the point of stereotyping. Well-intentioned stereotyping, perhaps, but still. And given how the writers apparently could not help themselves with how they portrayed foreign cultures as stereotypically foreign, it is perhaps for the best that we didn't get more buffaloes or zebras...

Not that the Yaks were that much better, mind you. It took them years to move beyond "angry, violent discount Mongolians" and show something that actually resembled a culture.

And on Spike, I can totally see how someone can dislike him, especially in his focus episodes. There really are two Spikes on this show: the smart, competent, beleaguered sidekick of Twilight who never fails to have insightful commentary on whatever the main characters are doing, and the immature, irresponsible child Spike who is always getting himself into trouble and has Much To Learn. The former generally shows up when Spike is not the focus character, while the latter does when he is in the spotlight. Unsurprisingly, I prefer the former.

It is basically the same problem Applejack has: both these characters don't actually have much to learn in the way of friendship, unless a focus episode forces them to suddenly have a Flaw Of The Week. This is also why we have very few Applejack focus episodes, and those mostly deal with Applejack working too hard, or having to deal with other characters lying.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
harryhenry It's either real or it's a dream Since: Jan, 2012
It's either real or it's a dream
#203732: Dec 3rd 2021 at 2:58:32 AM

[up] A great example of Applejack having little to learn in terms of friendship was in that Cider episode, where her friendship letter at the end noted that she didn't actually learn anything.

And when it comes to Spike, that contradictory nature of his character explains the varied reactions he's gotten over the years. There were some overzealous Bronies who decried him for having such goofy moments, and those who looked up to him as like a Brony surrogate, but in a good way. Basically they were just focused on either his goofy or competent side.

Edited by harryhenry on Dec 3rd 2021 at 11:59:01 PM

SantosLHalper Since: Aug, 2009
#203733: Dec 3rd 2021 at 5:27:59 AM

If I ever made an MLP abridged series, I would start Friendship Is Magic, Pt. 1 with Carl Sagan solemnly narrating the Legend of the Two Sisters as dramatic classical (and/or electronic) music plays, before cutting to Sagan himself in a Cosmos clip, overdubbed with him explaining about how the world isn't actually flat, nor the sun and moon raised by two magical alicorns, before the director tries to cut him off there and the two subsequently getting into a fight over the latter apparently lying to the former about what kind of show he was in.

Also, did I mention that I have been continuously awake for about 18 hours now?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#203734: Dec 3rd 2021 at 5:44:09 AM

> Also, did I mention that I have been continuously awake for about 18 hours now?

I'm in a similar state due to rat being found in my room

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
SantosLHalper Since: Aug, 2009
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#203736: Dec 3rd 2021 at 5:48:34 AM

Rat "If I stay perfectly still he can't see me"!

Me :"I see you Mr.Rat!"

Rat: Oh beans

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#203737: Dec 3rd 2021 at 7:17:14 AM

Post of the Day #3443

@kegisak Only Tripods, aliens comes from space - sound stupid, because it is, but rest of move is great.

Why "tripods" need to come from space? Why not from some other dimension or from the deep?

Posted by Death Cloud on Sat, 12th May '12 12:03:59 PM - Post #192299 in the old thread

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GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#203738: Dec 3rd 2021 at 7:51:03 AM

I'd say Starlight was showing signs of being full of shit even back during Cutie Map.

When the cast starts to give everyone their cutie marks back, we cut to a scene of Starlight by herself in her house, and she says something like: "They think they can come into MY village and disrupt MY life?"

Like, it doesn't sound like she really cares about her townsfolk. Her first instinct is to whine about how this will effect HER. Which gels with how her motive is explained in R Emark, where it seems like she was trying to get rid of cutie marks in an attempt to create a world that would never hurt her again.

Edited by GNinja on Dec 3rd 2021 at 3:53:53 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#203739: Dec 3rd 2021 at 8:05:54 AM

I don't think that contradicts what was said before about her. Of course there is a self-serving element to her motivation.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#203740: Dec 3rd 2021 at 9:40:01 AM

Yes. There was definitely room in Starlight's original character for self-serving motives. There are basically three directions you could go with this character:

  1. Absolute ideologue believes devoutly in what she was saying. Only compromised her ideals out of necessity.
  2. Fascist power-hungry dictator using pleasant-sounding lies to con people into surrendering authority to her.
  3. Bit of both. Hypocritical ideologue with high-minded ideals that, due to her own flaws, she cannot live up to. Wants to be #1 up there, sees herself as #1, but is undermined by her personal failings and thus drifts towards #2.

All of these could be interesting directions. There's tons of room to explore her belief system and why she does or does not actually adhere to it.

What we got, however, was that she was angry that a friend left her, and just did some bad stuff as a way of lashing out. Simple, lazy, and easy to fix: Give her a friend and BOOM, she's cured of doing bad things!

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 3rd 2021 at 9:40:35 AM

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Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#203741: Dec 3rd 2021 at 12:12:10 PM

[up] Yeah, I think the reason for that is that on this show, every problem needs to be a Friendship Problem somehow. And the first Starlight version did not have a Friendship Problem. She had a Cutie Mark Problem.

The big irony is that this would have been right up the CMC's alleyway, but the writers were clearly not interested in that angle.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
GlitterCat Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: The Skitty to my Wailord
#203742: Dec 3rd 2021 at 2:35:20 PM

They did get a CMC vs idealist who thinks ponies are better off without cutie marks with Rumble, but then they kinda tripped at the finish line when they revealed he wanted a cutie mark similar to his brother's and was afraid he'd get one he didn't like instead.

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Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#203743: Dec 3rd 2021 at 2:54:22 PM

Sure, and that would have been a perfect tie in for Starlight, but somehow no one thought to ask her.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#203744: Dec 3rd 2021 at 4:51:12 PM

To be honest, I've forgotten about what Cutie Map! Starlight was like entirely. Just like the writers, I guess.

As for Spike, yeah, the problem was that he was a great supporting character, but all his focus episodes were terrible, at least in the early seasons.

Edited by storyyeller on Dec 3rd 2021 at 7:52:54 AM

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Demetrios Lucky Seven from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#203746: Dec 3rd 2021 at 5:49:47 PM

I'm in the minority, but I never particularly liked Gauntlet of Fire. Mainly because I never really liked Ember. She's always just... rubbed me the wrong way.

She's always felt to me like a stock character from a lot of stuff I watched growing up in the 90's and early 00's. She's the rebel tomboy of a male-dominated activity or cast. She's spunky and full of vigor! The boys tell her she can't but oooh boy, that just makes her want to do it more!

Writers used to throw token characters or episodes like this into their stories whenever they wanted to look like they're progressive. There'd be, like, one episode in a series where the girl wants to play basketball. And the boys are like, "LOL, you can't play basketball." And then she challenges them to a basketball contest! And she WINS! Girl Power! And then the show goes back to doing what it's always done. It's a cheap, easy way to pretend your show is feminist.

Ember's always just struck me as that character. And that's always bothered me. Because MLP doesn't need that character. MLP doesn't need the "Rebel tomboy that boys tell her she can't, but then she does, so boys can suck it." The show's cast is already predominately female, and the show's stories are primarily pointed at little girls.

So. Like. Ember feels like a token character added into a series that was already mostly slanted towards the thing she's a token of anyway. It's like adding a jive-talking wacky Blaxploitation Sidekick to Black Panther 2. We don't need a token of this. We already have plenty of well-developed three-dimensional characters for this demographic. Why is this here?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 3rd 2021 at 5:50:24 AM

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Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#203747: Dec 3rd 2021 at 6:59:19 PM

[up]I think Ember was as well received as she was because while she'd be a average character by pony writing standards, she was good by dragon standards as it was the 1st Spike focused episode where he was thought written well and all other dragons prior were one-dimensional/jerks.

@ Redmess: The CMC episodes were the ones that disproved Starlight's ideology. To bad there was apparently no room for them to cross over and have synergy.

Maybe if they replaced "Re-mark" with a more slice of life Starlight's redemption would have worked better (less evildoing working against, more time dealing with her issues convincingly).

"Marks and Recreation" had Rumble be a better anti-cutie mark antagonist in one episode that Starlight in two and a half. Besides having a less contentious backstory and redemption, it better handled the moral complexity that was supposed to Starlight's appeal/redeemability. It showed the legit issues that caused ponies to go along with their ideology (showing what theoretical good Starlight's ideology did would make their forgiving her feel more legit) which was disproven by it's logical consequence as opposed to discarding the debate.

If it's the kind of show where a just-pubescent child was a better fit for this than Starlight, what does that say?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 3rd 2021 at 7:07:19 AM

Theriocephalus Amateur Veteran from gimme a map and a moment and I can tell you Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Amateur Veteran
#203748: Dec 3rd 2021 at 7:44:22 PM

Kinda backtracking, but the talk about Starlight and Sunset being turned into basically new characters in their redemption and then only ever talking about their previous deeds in the vaguest possible terms reminded me that that's a pretty lasting issue in how the show handled redemptions — Luna's got the precise same issue. She talks a lot about how she was a bad pony who did bad things and feels really bad about it, but exactly what she did and how she did it and what if anything has changed about those things is never actually touched about, and of course there's no trace of Nightmare Moon's personality and motivations in Luna.

(Of course, Nightmare Moon being magically turned into another person is precisely what happened in canon, so. There's that.)

I think that the only villain this didn't happen to is Discord. Reformed!Discord tends to be an unbearable jackass for the exact same reasons villain!Discord was — in "The Return of Harmony", he was arrogant, scornful, superior, easily bored, prone to underestimating others and very manipulative, and post-reform Discord is... arrogant, scornful, superior, easily bored, prone to underestimating others and very manipulative. He's really on the side of the angels less because of any personal epiphany or desire to do good and more because he's decided he cares about this one specific person and doesn't want to upset her, but he's otherwise exactly the same person he was when he was a villain.

(Although it's also interesting to note that he very gradually starts to grow past this by the last couple seasons when he strikes up his friendship with Spike and Big Mac, plus the Season 9 pilot where he shows some very interesting investment in Twilight's growth as a ruler. Still a very one-step-forward-one-step-back track, which makes sense enough. I don't imagine you can centuries of bad habits on the fly.)

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#203749: Dec 3rd 2021 at 9:50:00 PM

I've always thought that the plot of "The Cutie Map" would honestly make more sense as a CMC story than a Mane Six one. OG Starlight Glimmer being the Crusaders' archnemesis just makes sense, y'know.

[up] Agreed. Luna did have a similar problem.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 3rd 2021 at 9:51:13 AM

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Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#203750: Dec 4th 2021 at 12:34:26 AM

Actually, Luna is much worse. Nightmare Moon was pretty explicitly and canonically swapped for a different character, not just in personality, but physically as well. Later episodes even leaned into this, making Nightmare Moon into this weird magical alter ego that Luna couldn't really control. They might as well have been two different characters in that regard.

This also makes Luna's depression and guilt oddly complicated. She turned into Nightmare Moon, but she wasn't the same pony, not in the same way that Starlight once was a cult leader and now isn't, but more like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

Which, you know, is perfectly fine for a fairy tale that isn't too concerned with realism or consistency, like the early show was. But then the show changed, and like Spike, Luna and Nightmare Moon suddenly had to make sense in a real world kind of way. And so we get the weird situation where Luna is depressed over actions she could not possibly be held responsible over, because she literally was someone else while doing it.

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