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My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (Live Reactions & Discussion)

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A thread to discuss My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic and the tie-in media.

All of the usual forum rules apply. In addition, please remember that the thread is discussing a kids' show, and it's primarily focused on the work itself, not the fanfic — in particular, we don't want to see lewdness creeping in.

     Original OP text 
I don't know WHAT the Hell happened (I blame shenanigans) but we're going to start from scratch. Post your feels for this awesome show again! Naow!

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 26th 2024 at 10:24:26 AM

storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#196976: Jan 20th 2020 at 6:06:18 AM

Post of the Day #2764

Yeah, place is smaller, and more people, and more cramped. But less overall issues, actual working how water, and a LOT closer to work, as well as places for Silver to get a job.

Posted by Seraphem on 23rd Apr 2015 03:25:34 PM - Post #114047 in the new thread

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
Rytex Your Friend on the Other Side from Here, There, Everywhere (Ancient one) Relationship Status: Married to the music
Your Friend on the Other Side
#196977: Jan 20th 2020 at 6:58:45 AM

Did female fans get drowned out by the guys, kinda like gamers?

The powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#196978: Jan 20th 2020 at 7:16:55 AM

Fluttershy would build a deck based around flavor rather than power.

Fluttershy's a Vorthos, then. ^_^

The core philosophy of the three player types is

  • Timmy plays to experience something.
  • Johnny plays to express something.
  • Spike plays to prove something.

With Mel and Vorthos being aesthetic types

It's also worth noting that how you play can be very different from how you build. I, personally, deck-build as a Vorthos then play as a Johnny/Spike. I select a character, then build a deck around that character that feels both effective, yet reflective of who that character is as a person.

What I seek to express is the character and personality of my deck. What I want to prove is that a deck built with attention to character and personality can still win.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Fluttershy do the same. Fluttershy's deck in Pony MTG would be built around her favorite character, be built to express that character's personality, but be full of deck synergies that make it unexpectedly strong all the same.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 20th 2020 at 8:19:34 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#196981: Jan 20th 2020 at 7:50:41 AM

I think it's more an issue of the forum hiding gender to a large extent. It's not immediately clear if someone you're talking to is male or female.

And yes, I also think part of it is the "brony" label being somewhat exclusionary to women.

[up][up]What are those? They're too cute to not be evil, right? grin

Edited by Redmess on Jan 20th 2020 at 4:52:00 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#196982: Jan 20th 2020 at 7:58:14 AM

Lily made an analysis of the entire show:

I think she makes a few good points. The one about how fans are getting too much influence on this (and other) shows is particularly concerning.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Rainbow Pomeranian Lover from Central Illinois (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Pomeranian Lover
#196983: Jan 20th 2020 at 8:05:30 AM

@Redmess: That is three Kyubeys with the Cutie Mark Crusaders' manestyles. To explain without giving too much away (in case you don't want spoilers for the anime he's from), Kyubey is a Mentor Mascot character from Puella Magi Madoka Magica, but getting magical powers from him is more like a Deal with the Devil compared to most magical girl anime mascots. So it would not be good for Gabby to get a cutie mark by asking him for one.

Edited by Rainbow on Jan 20th 2020 at 11:28:19 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#196984: Jan 20th 2020 at 9:13:22 AM

This is a very curious reinterpretation of Dr Faust, then.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#196985: Jan 20th 2020 at 9:40:40 AM

Yeah, Lily touches on some of the points my friend Viking and I have been making over the years, that it feels like there's been a shift away from women and some men writing stories for little girls, and towards men and some women writing stories for bronies.

But her explanation is clarified and explained better than I feel I've ever done. As I've said before, the show had a pretty solid premise and concept for its function back in the early seasons, which was ultimately jettisoned with the change in creators in favor of reaching for that Epic Worldbuilding Cred.

[up] Seriously, check out Puella Magi Madoka Magica. It's difficult to explain the phenomenon around Kyubey without spoiling things; Madoka is one of those series where everything, every single thing, is a spoiler.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 20th 2020 at 10:44:17 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#196986: Jan 20th 2020 at 10:29:06 AM

It also touches on some of my criticism that the concept of friendship is being stretched to its breaking point in later seasons by scaling up the problems to such an extent that they cannot simply be resolved by friendship lessons. The introduction of the yaks is a prime example of this: the initial problem was not a lack of friendliness, but rather a lack of diplomacy, something this show is not interested in really dealing with. The yaks react hostile, not because the ponies are not being friendly enough, but because they are being culturally insensitive, however unintentional, and they are not being diplomatic about it at all. Their first instinct at the first hint of trouble is to press on with being friendly, in the name of Friendship, when the diplomatically wise reaction would have been to take a step back and reconsider why they are reacting in such a way. Of course in the end they solve this with Friendship, but only because the show dictates that they will succeed with this.

And then there are the villain redemptions, with an insistence that Friendship can redeem anyone, no matter how heinous their acts. Though really, the earliest example of this was not Starlight. It was Discord. As Tobias mentioned in the Korra thread, fandoms are very forgiving to villains who are entertaining and cause no permanent harm. Had it not been for the fans, the show would have been perfectly justified for keeping him a statue forever. And the finale seems to tacitly admit that they should indeed have done just that.

And I think Lily is right about the trend of putting themes and villains in children's shows that these shows are woefully unequipped to handle. Shows that revolve around themes of personal friendship and the individual power to change things for the better saddle themselves with monstrous, "mature" villains whose misdeeds are so heinous that no amount of friendship or individual action could reasonably be expected to redeem them, and saying that they could would be reprehensible in and of itself when put in a real world context. Steven Universe taking on themes of fascism and genocide is a prime example of this. Starlight Glimmer is not quite this evil, but still has done morally reprehensible things that the real world is pretty clear about not being able to be forgiven by a simple "I'm sorry I did a bad". Starlight should have been jailed, not befriended. And maybe she could be redeemed after a punishment, but it sure would have taken a lot more narrative effort than the show took, which stuck to its "Friendship solves everything" guns.

The irony is that Cozy was imprisoned for her crimes, and this was decried because she was a child. This despite it being a realistic reaction to such a criminally inclined child. Yes, children can be sent to jail (usually in the form of juvenile hall or similar) for serious enough crimes.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#196987: Jan 20th 2020 at 10:51:19 AM

Can't say much for MLP but I don't really care that SU is that forgiving.

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
jessicadicicco610 Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#196988: Jan 20th 2020 at 10:53:32 AM

You know it's funny? Mary Anne Gleardon was also a child villain like Cozy Glow due to how she masqueraded as Que Horrifico, and she ended up jailed for her crimes. I'm guessing she was less controversial due to having a more established personality (mainly being a child prodigy who thought she was better than most adults).

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#196989: Jan 20th 2020 at 11:36:42 AM

I've always liked the rehabilitation approach they took in season six with Starlight Glimmer. I've talked a bit recently in another thread about rehabilitation versus redemption as plot devices.

  • Rehabilitation emphasizes growing and changing. Fixing the problems that made you a dumpster fire of a person and becoming someone who contributes positively to society.
  • Redemption is about ceasing to be Evil and becoming Good, typically through one dramatic gesture of Good that proves you are no longer Evil and are now Good. Even if you're fundamentally the same asshole you were before, you are an asshole on Team Good, so your asshole traits are forgiven.

The friendship lessons Starlight was given in season six were about rehabilitating her into a contributing member of society. And it was a rocky road for her, as it should be; full of bumps and pitfalls brought on in part because of the very much deserved absence of trust in her, a reforming criminal in a gilded cell.

I think they could have done more to emphasize that lack of trust and struggle, but their hearts were in the right place: they wanted Starlight to go on a journey of ceasing to be shitty by exploring the reasons for why and how she is shitty.

This, like many of the show's good ideas, was ultimately jettisoned. In this case, the offender is the episode, "To Where And Back Again". That two-parter switched tracks to redemption. Starlight fights Chrysalis to save Equestria and is thus declared Totes Good, even though a willingness to defend Equestria from those who might threaten it is utterly unrelated to her main flaw: a capacity for violent overreaction at the tiniest inkling of a problem.

Because she fought Chrysalis, an entire episode is dedicated at the start of season 7 to Starlight graduating from friendship lessons and being officially a Good Pony. Meanwhile, the flaws that she was supposed to overcome don't change; instead, the narrative shifts so that those flaws are now her wacky character quirk.

LOL, that wacky Starlight, switching the Princesses' Cutie Marks and unilaterally selling Trixie's wagon without consent and starting cults to eradicate Cutie Marks. What are we gonna do with that ragamuffin?

Starlight's rehabilitation was a pretty cool direction, but her redemption did what redemption always does: provided an unearned forgiveness of all wrongdoing as a reward for good service to a character that gave no indication of actually having become a better person. Thanks for saving Equestria, Starlight, but sit your ass back down in Rehab Class.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 20th 2020 at 12:40:16 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#196990: Jan 20th 2020 at 11:45:06 AM

Shows that revolve around themes of personal friendship and the individual power to change things for the better saddle themselves with monstrous, "mature" villains whose misdeeds are so heinous that no amount of friendship or individual action could reasonably be expected to redeem them, and saying that they could would be reprehensible in and of itself when put in a real world context.

This reminds me of my main complaint about A Dog and Pony Show. That episode was hugely popular, but I could never like it, because whenever I watch it, the back of my mind is telling me that in real life, Rarity would probably be raped and/or murdered, and it made it uncomfortable to watch.

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GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#196991: Jan 20th 2020 at 12:30:06 PM

[up][up] I dunno, I thought On the Road to Friendship treated Starlight's callous selling of Trixie's wagon pretty seriously. It certainly wasn't wacky.

I'd say what changed over time wasn't that you were suddenly supposed to see Starlight's flaws as cute, but that Starlight's flaws were now supposed to be seen as flaws she has as a person, rather than as a sociopathic villain.

Starlight overreacting isn't a "villainous" trait anymore. It's who she is. It's still a flaw and it still leads her to genuine trouble, but she isn't likely to turn evil again because of it anymore. The problem now is that it could ruin her relationships with others. The stakes of the flaw were de-escalated, not suddenly treated without seriousness

Edited by GNinja on Jan 20th 2020 at 8:42:44 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#196992: Jan 20th 2020 at 12:44:01 PM

I don't think that's just you, there is definitely a darker undertone to that episode. The text is simply about resisting kidnapping and forced labour (which, while still pretty heavy, is at least palatable for a kids show), but the subtext is about resisting sexual assault at the minimum.

It's one of those things children's shows can get away with (or assume they can) because their audience is too young to pick up on those subtexts. It is also an issue that long predates the current pandering to older fans. You can probably trace it back all the way to the Looney Tunes, which were cartoons that were originally definitely not aimed at children (see all the wolf whistle and suicide jokes, for instance).

I liked the idea of Starlight as well in principle, but I think that arc suffered from a rushed start (Starlight is immediately absorbed into the mane six, and forgiven by her village instantly), and an unconvincing end (like Tobias described above). I think things would have gone a lot better if she had been sent to prison first, then have an entire episode dedicated to her coming to terms with her actions and making amends of sorts with her village, and having her undergo some actual character growth, instead of the Comedic Sociopathy reset button she kept getting.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#196993: Jan 20th 2020 at 12:58:03 PM

[up] I truly, honestly, don't think Starlight's flaws are supposed to be funny.

Arguably, the most they've ever been played for laughs was way back in season 6. Every Little Thing She Does plays her mind control for the ha-has, and she doesn't see the problem until right near the end.

I'm thinking back on her roles from Season 7 onwards, and I can't think of many times when her big flaws were supposed to be funny. That bit in Uncommon Bond where Starlight turns herself and Sunburst into foals. That scene is not funny. Sunburst is clearly disturbed the entire time, and it ends with Starlight breaking down in tears. She swapped the princesses' cutie marks and consequently gave herself a nightmare that almost ripped her psyche apart. I'd say that's a big step forward from her not comprehending that mind control was bad in season 6. Her selling Trixie's wagon? There was no fun there at all. It was just depressing.

Edited by GNinja on Jan 21st 2020 at 4:36:28 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
SantosLHalper Since: Aug, 2009
#196994: Jan 20th 2020 at 1:03:07 PM

I can't say I'm fond of that video. But I also can't disagree with the premise of the video. Maybe it's time for more non-South Parkesque adult animation to more properly address mature themes in a serious way, like how a lot of anime does (the aforementioned PMMM, for example). I'm already starting to see a trend with like BoJack Horseman.

Edited by SantosLHalper on Jan 20th 2020 at 4:03:17 AM

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#196995: Jan 20th 2020 at 1:57:02 PM

Cozy had already been given another chance at being sent to Tartarus and she showed no remorse for her actions at all.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#196996: Jan 20th 2020 at 3:50:47 PM

I think another problem for this particular show is that, with such a young audience, they tend to not show many actual authority figures, let alone a wider system for child support (hence why we barely see any parents, everyone is a sister or brother, or honorary such and such). This can clash a bit with their tendency to have juvenile villains, or villains with a childhood backstory excuse, where older fans start wondering where their parents and the government is in all this.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#196997: Jan 20th 2020 at 5:52:25 PM

And also why Ponies teaching other races about friendship isn't given that much thought.

I mean, I still disagree that it's colonialism (it's not like Twilight's trying to subvert their governments and calling it colonialism is sort of reverse-Neighsay, imo) but having neighbors that like you and can understand your culture (which is what I believe the School of Friendship to be about) is an important part of diplomacy.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#196998: Jan 20th 2020 at 11:04:35 PM

It's not colonialism, it's cultural imperialism. Which are similar things, but not the same thing.

It was a weird writing decision to declare Friendship to be exclusively a Pony Value that all other races are totally ignorant about.

It was an even weirder writing decision to use that weird declaration to write a story about imparting upon these savage, lesser peoples the important Pony Value that makes pony culture so great. Gotta make them more like us so that they, too, can be great!

In the back half of the series, a creative decision was made to declare friendship to be a racial trait for ponies. This went hand in hand with the creative decision to make friendship into a MacGuffin. As Lily notes, the show stopped using friendship as a social relationship between characters and instead started using it as some divine force of pure benevolence that must be absolutely maintained.

Other races had social relationships. They had other members of their race whose presence they enjoyed, and they built those relationships. The most staunchly anti-Friendship race are the dragons, commonly represented by Garble. And Garble was always surrounded by a group of dragons who did everything with him, hung out with him, shot the shit with him, but were not his Friends because dragons don't have Friends because only ponies have Friends because the Divine Friendship is a pony racial trait.

Nowhere is the arbitrary definition of friendship in the latter half of the series more visible than Garble's not-friend pals who are not friends but are his pals but must never be considered his friends. Like, it takes some pretty tortured definitions of friendship to show Garble lava-surfing with his buddies, then turn around and go, "Ugh, ponies and their friendships. Friendship is the grossest thing ever and no dragon would ever entertain the idea. AMIRITE, MY LIFELONG BROS?"

But that's how they wrote it, so that they could make a thing of Twilight improving all of their cultures by teaching them the Divine Friendship, which is like the relationships they already have but better 'cause it came from ponies.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 20th 2020 at 12:05:43 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#196999: Jan 21st 2020 at 3:56:38 AM

And you see this absolutism of friendship too in personal relationships. The earliest example is probably Cranky, who Pinkie absolutely insisted on befriending against his will, and the episode ultimately rewarding her for her rather pushy behaviour. And he still didnt turn out to be much of a good friend. Just consider how some of his later episodes treated him: like a snarky asshole, to the CMC no less.

What a contrast to the Gilda episode, which was not afraid to say that you don't need to be friends with assholes, and that it is perfectly okay to cut them out of your life. And those two episodes are barely a season apart.

And yeah, Starlight and Trixie are the worst example of this, where toxic behaviour is constantly forgiven. Yes, there is conflict over it, and often consequences of some sort, but these are never lasting consequences. These are two rather selfish and callous ponies that keep hurting each other in small and big ways, but it never sticks, and it is always presented as ultimately okay behaviour.

And it extends to parental relationships, too. The show's treatment of Rainbow Dash's parents was awful, and Rainbow Dash had every right to blow up at them over it, but the show instead insists that Dash is the one in the wrong, both for yelling at her parents and for being annoyed by their overbearing, intrusive, clingy, and disruptive behaviour. And yes, sometimes you do need to show anger and blow up at someone, when that is the only way to get through to them. And it was, because her parents were not only oblivious to it, they actively ignored it. Just look at how they immediately shift blame once Dash blows up at them.

Though the big irony is that the show apparently is willing to budge on the parental issues. A later episode with Starlight and Sunburst is basically a do-over of that episode where the parents are clearly shown to be in the wrong about their overbearing (and creepy, in the case of Sunburst's mom, though that is never commented on) behaviour, and they accept responsibility for their behaviour without blame shifting. And then a later episode went all the way, showing that yes, you can cut bad parents out of your life, especially when they were never there for you to begin with. And they were Scootaloos parents, too. Which leaves us with the odd lesson that Frienship is Sacred, but Parents are Expendable.

And then there are the show's brushes with the topic of suicide, which it is woefully unequipped to handle. But that is perhaps a topic for another post.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Rainbow Pomeranian Lover from Central Illinois (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Pomeranian Lover
#197000: Jan 21st 2020 at 5:49:16 AM

@Tobias: In the specific case of the dragons, my guess is that the show was implying that Garble's relationship with the dragons he hangs out with isn't really friendship if it doesn't include kindness and actually caring about one another's wellbeing (kindness being one of the Elements of Harmony). However, it's only implied at best and isn't outright stated, which then leads to your argument that "if he hangs out with them aren't they his friends?" because in real life, different people have different definitions of how they define "friendship" for themselves, and there are also different levels/types of friendships that one person might have. One thought I had is that in the later seasons, they probably should be using a word like "compassion" or something similar instead of just calling it "friendship" if it's being used to mean kindness and caring in general.

Edited by Rainbow on Jan 21st 2020 at 7:59:30 AM


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