A thread to discuss My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic and the tie-in media.
All of the usual forum rules
apply. In addition, please remember that the thread is discussing a kids' show, and it's primarily focused on the work itself, not the fanfic — in particular, we don't want to see lewdness creeping in.
Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 26th 2024 at 10:24:26 AM
Amateur Veteran
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I agree that that's a fairly good moral, but that wasn't really present in the comic. The conclusion was fairly clearly presented as Twilight needing Spike, specifically, as her new friend, despite that being what caused her problems to begin with. Twilight needing to reach out is obvious to the reader, but the story itself treats it as a complete non-issue.
Asking how much work raising Spike might have been and how the labor was split is one thing, but I hardly think that the comics writers were under any obligation to answer that by saying that Twilight was the only one doing all of the work while Celestia just kinda stood there.
Wow, buddy. That story sounds amazing.
Edit:
Doesn’t really make this any less stupid, especially for a character who’s supposed to have her head on tighter then this.
And I think there’s a difference between when Celestia sends her (questionably) adult magical prodigy student to accomplish important tasks and dumping a baby to be raised by a child by herself.
Edited by fredhot16 on Jan 10th 2020 at 10:01:45 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.Post of the Day #2755
Posted by crowlover on Tue, 29th May '12 4:10:24 AM - Post #208258 in the old thread
Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play![]()
In a in-universe sense.
Anyway, today is “Gauntlet of Fire”. It combines two of my favorite things: Spike and dragons. What could go wrong?
Edited by fredhot16 on Jan 11th 2020 at 9:09:43 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.That one, at least, is a fairly decent Spike episode without any major problems, if I remember correctly.
It was definitely an improvement over the first Dragon Lands episode, focussing more on dragon culture. Though in hindsight, that could also be a demerit for starting off the rather stereotyped macho culture depiction of dragons beyond mere teenage posturing.
Edited by Redmess on Jan 11th 2020 at 7:27:17 PM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesI think some of the later Spike episodes were pretty good. They eventually got over their issue of botching the aesop every time at least.
Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's PlayYeah, they did. Spike's episodes eventually got better when they focused less on him fucking things up in defiance of his previously-established character and more on his dragon heritage.
Also as I was marathoning the series back in October in preparation for the finale I started wondering exactly how people got that ponies were pulling a White Man's Burden on other countries, especially the dragons, the more things got explained.
Because the other races tend to be depicted as poor, violent, or ignorant, and all of them somehow don't know about friendship, despite clearly being social species themselves, and the ponies are depicted as the only race who have the concept of friendship, and feel obligated to spread it to other cultures.
And yes, ponies are generally sorely lacking in friendship values, too, but as soon as other races are involved, that tends to be forgotten.
When you replace friendship with civilization or Christianity, it becomes much clearer. Twilight's mission is basically a cross between white man's burden and evangelism.
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesYeah, it's kinda hard to not see the parallels when the other races were depicted as:
- Violent assholes who'll start a war over the most petty things. (Yaks)
- Greedy jerks who take advantage of everyone, even other members of their kind. (Griffons and Dragons)
Post of the Day #2756
Posted by Japanese Teeth on Thu, 18th Jul '13 12:38:52 PM - Post #384028 in the old thread
Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's PlayYeah, ponies' interactions with the other races have always tended to be depicted as the other species being bettered and improved by adopting pony values over their own original behavior, but nothing of the sort happens in the other direction. The dragons and the griffons needed to learn to be sociable and friendly from the ponies, but they didn't have anything to teach them themselves. The changelings wholesale adopted pony practices, culture, values and traditions while discarding their own original culture, such as it was, but the ponies didn't exactly absorb a lot from the changelings.
It makes sense in-universe, because if only one society is functional and all others are at best severely dysfunctional and driven by greed and aggressiveness and at worst little more than roving armies it's obvious who needs to learn from who. The issue is in the show itself choosing to depict only one culture's set of values as proper and correct and all others as, well, what we got from the griffins and the dragons and the changelings and the yaks...
Right, and part of it is the show's tendency to base other races on real life groups that have historically been othered, colonized, persecuted, and generally treated as "barbaric". This goes all the way back to "Over A Barrel", which depicted the bison as rather stereotypical native Americans. The Griffins are based on oriental-ish former empires, mired in poverty and petty squabbles. Yaks are basically Huns, Mongols, and other assorted central-Asian nomadic tribes. The hippogriffs are based on insular kingdoms like the Chinese or Japanese used to be (perhaps the Japanese in particular, with their transformation symbolizing Japan's rapid modernization).
The dragons are more generically barbaric and culture-less, while the Changelings are basically the idea of the shapeless, unreasonable, terrifying Other given form. In another setting (say, Gothic fiction), the Changelings would fit right in amongst the likes of Dracula and Richard Marsh' The Beetle, as a stand-in for fears of the Other that was particularly prevalent in Imperial England a century ago.
And that's just in-universe. What I find telling, and perhaps more worrying, is that the bison are the only one who faced particular objections by viewers. Since these viewers are generally assumed to be Americans first and foremost, that says some rather unflattering things about where America's priorities lie when it comes to racial stereotyping.
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesThe Bison and Yaks are pretty clearly based on real world cultures, but I disagree about Griffins and Hippogriffs. There's nothing Japanese about them.
Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's PlayI meant more in a general sense. The Griffins are a former empire declined into poverty (of which there are plenty to be found in Asia and Arabia), and the hippogriffs are definitely isolationist, and have something of a split identity.
Japan just came up as an example of that sort of change, that is all. But you are right, the hippogriffs are not Japanese. They are not really anything at all, honestly.
Edited by Redmess on Jan 12th 2020 at 9:28:17 PM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesI would say that culture is the Equestrian part of the exchange. Yeah they teach the other races about friendship, but Equestria is also enriched for it for everyone, not just ponies. Besides, ponies had already had a history of overcoming their differences and living together, but the other races hadn't. Dragons backstabbed one another constantly and griffins are greedy jerks, but the yaks' only flaw was their pride (all of their anger comes from YAKS BEST AT X but also learning to accept help when they need it), while the Changelings actually needed coaching in order to better help reintegrate themselves into the world as peaceful rather than a creepy evil swarm. The hippogriffs had a similar problem because they had been under the sea for so long they also had to be re-introduced to the world.
Edited by theLibrarian on Jan 12th 2020 at 2:49:40 PM
And season eight appeared to be response to this criticism (partly, at least) — just because some of the Student Six's cultures don't value friendship like ponies do doesn't mean they aren't as capable of it as anyone else, and just because pony culture values friendship doesn't mean ponies can't be close-minded, racist, or just as bad as the worst villains on the show.
I haven’t seen the show in a while but other cultures and races are almost always presented in a negative light, with not much redeemable value and little liking or conception of basic companionship (which is super idiotic) or even that much individuality or criticism against their cultures until they’ve made contact with Equestrians and the mythical virtue they hold called “friendship”.
Yaks are over-aggressive, arrogant, and, honestly, xenophobic, Gryphons are greedy, Dragons are jerks. It’s usually in this brutish, reductive light where you’re either a card-carrying dick or you’ve met a pony who showed you the light that we see other cultures.
And, yeah, once you realize it, it kinda comes off as “Pastel Mare’s Burden”, where our protagonists go around to solve problems but the problems are other cultures by injecting their own culture into them, which has a pretty bad history and, frankly, sounds a bit arrogant.
Season eight: best described as “an attempt was made, as unaware of how it looked as it may have been”.
Edited by fredhot16 on Jan 13th 2020 at 1:16:51 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.The show really has good intentions, but it tends to be very tone deaf about colonial themes it inadvertently raises by its insistence on depicting other races as completely lacking in friendship.
What is also interesting about this is how the show inverts gender stereotyping in its colonialist imagery. In human Orientalism, the Other is generally depicted as feminine, decadent, and weak (yet somehow still a threat), while the colonizers are depicted as masculine, cultured, and powerful. This gets gender flipped in this show, with ponies being a matriarchal society that is generally very passive and weak against military attacks, while other races are generally very masculine (to the point of toxicity), patriarchal (except for Changelings, which are based on insect hives), and aggressive.
The Changelings are a particularly interesting example, since in their process of "westernization", they get flipped from a matriarchal society into a patriarchal one. Notice that this happens without so much as a peep from the changelings themselves, by the way, except from that one guy. Speaking of that guy, he was an interesting exception to the changeling's conversion. The entire species was effectively emasculated, both visually and culturally, becoming just as decadent and seemingly defenceless as the ponies. But this one guy wants to retain his masculinity, toxic as it may be, and he is the villain for it. It seems that, on this show, in order to be accepted, you must be emasculated to some degree.
Spike is probably the prime example of this emasculation. Dragons are generally very masculine, even the females, but Spike is so immersed in pony culture (which is predominantly feminine), that he seems more like a pony than a dragon. The implication seems to be that to be male in Equestria means either being toxic or being emasculated and feminized. It is a rather black and white sort of feminism that ends up not being all that feminist after all.
You have to wonder what all this does to shape young girls' minds.
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesSo, should we put this as an entry under Unfortunate Implications ? I mean, this does inadvertently put Equestria on a higher pedestal .
Unfortunate Implications require sources other than fan speculation on a forum about analyzing fiction.
Unless there exists some news outlet or professional analyst that has written about this, then none of this can be added.
