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If other superheroes had Aquaman Syndrome

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NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#101: Sep 5th 2013 at 7:46:50 PM

[up][up] Well, the blue 'camo' suit and the orange-less shirtless look both tanked, so...

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#102: Sep 5th 2013 at 8:03:31 PM

[up][up][up]Depends on the shades used.

[up][up]Atlantis Is Boring

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#103: Sep 5th 2013 at 8:23:10 PM

[up]See, aside from humorous uses, that trope always bothers me. The ocean is never not boring. Not to mention that "more is known about the Moon than the deepest parts of the ocean". Writers should go wild on Atlantis. How about an epic fantasy/scifi story starring Aquaman?

Then again, my favorite book of all time is Twenty Thousand Leagues Under The Sea, so I might be biased.tongue

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#104: Sep 5th 2013 at 8:47:26 PM

The thing is, in the weird world of comic books, almost anything you can have happen in the deep sea, you can also have happen on land, in the air, or in space. However, if you set a story underwater, you've got to deal with the fact that there's water everywhere.

If you make the water completely transparent, it'll look weird, like everyone's on the surface only somehow they can float in mid-air. But if you make the water visible (blue tint, bubbles floating about, ripples around moving objects, etc.), it gets old fast. Imagine if a Planetary Romance was set on an alien world where the atmosphere was full of billowing clouds of yellow gas; eventually you'd get tired of seeing yellow gas everywhere, right? It's the same deal with water; unless there's some reason we should care what the characters are breathing, making the atmosphere around them visible just distracts readers from stuff that's actually interesting.

Of course, this only applies to visual media; prose novels like Twenty Thousand Leagues Under The Sea don't have any of those problems.

edited 5th Sep '13 8:51:45 PM by RavenWilder

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#105: Sep 5th 2013 at 9:38:53 PM

Do it the Spongebob way. Just have the bubbles pop up every now and again to remind us that we are underwater.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#106: Sep 5th 2013 at 11:16:18 PM

On the idea that anything you can do in oceans, you can do on land: I agree with this, and would add that many things you can do on land, can't be done underwater.

It's much harder for non-Atlantean characters to travel to the bottom of the ocean. They need special equipment just to exist down there. You can't have huge, epic battle scenes with non-Atlanteans without risking damaging their outfit, so a lot of the combat is nerfed. Water physics heavily interfere with an actual fight scene. Fiery explosions can't happen. Fire itself cannot be used.

Ultimately, many of the things that go into a typical action scene are rendered void by the simple fact of being underwater at the time, resulting in underwater action scenes being specifically underwater action scenes by necessity.

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RedneckRocker First Loyalty: Yourself from None Of Your Business Since: Jan, 2001
First Loyalty: Yourself
#107: Sep 6th 2013 at 7:22:58 AM

It's strange, but among my friends, I'm one of the few who actually LIKED Arthur's Conan-like appearance from the '90s (the long hair & beard, cyber-hand, etc.) "Go ahead, make THAT joke againnote , M Fer! I dare you!"

(BTW, if you heard that line in Samuel L Jackson's voice, I wouldn't blame you).

Plus, a lot of non-readers seem to forget what Aquaman actually does for a living. He's the leader of an entire kingdom. In other words, he's got his own private army and centuries of Magitek. Still think he's lame?

Embroiled in slave rebellion, I escaped crucifixion simply by declaring 'I am Vito', everyone else apparently being called 'Spartacus'.
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#108: Sep 6th 2013 at 8:05:23 AM

@ Tobias - the idea that there is no such thing as an underwater explosion is just ridiculous, and a submarine setting carries with it the most reasonable excuse for Guns Are Useless / Immune to Bullets ever.

I've had a similar conversation before. :P It went like this:

...do mermaids ever get to be anything besides fantasy anarcho-naturists? I understand the idea of essentially personifying dolphins in human form, but I almost think even dwarves get more variation than they do...
What else do we have? Modernist mermaid autocracy?
Sure, why not? Mermaid cyberpunks, mermaid adventurers, mercantilist mermaid colonials, chivalric mermaid romances, private mermaid detectives. Pastoral mermaids, herding schools of domesticated fish and living lives of happy escapism. Tragic mermaids, struggling to reconcile themselves and their responsibilities to the kingdom, as tide of society inexorably decays. Gothic mermaid horror, with noble families brooding their tragic fates in aristocratic but desolate castles in the ocean depths, warmed by thermal vents full of all manner of dreadful things.

TLDR: OH NO, someone might have to have fun with the setting and be differently creative.

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#109: Sep 6th 2013 at 10:36:07 AM

That's why I emphasized "fiery" explosion. Things can explose underwater, but it's nowhere near as visually appealing. You can't have smoldering wrecks, wildfires, flamethrowers, pyrokinesis - effectively the entire spectrum of fire is shut off.

Lightning is unusable too. The two most beloved "badass" forces of nature are completely unusable for creating an action scene. In a genre that thrives on huge, explosive set pieces, this is crippling.

By all means, mermaid romcom, mermaid dramady, mermaid noir, mermaid horror, etc. are all feasible, but it's hard to sell mermaid action film when you have to replace Badass walking away from a fiery explosion with Mermaid swimming slowly away from a mild shockwave ripple in the waters. The fire is what makes the explosion cool. Without that, it's just stuff falling apart.

Writers know this. It's why they so frequently ignore the fact that huge, fiery explosions can't happen in space. Things can explode, but you can't have GIGANTIC INFERNO FIREBALL, which is what people really want to see when they say they want to see things explode. People really like fire. They like fiery explosions. They like people who can create fire. They like volcanic Final Dungeons. Humans love fire.

edited 6th Sep '13 10:41:20 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#110: Sep 6th 2013 at 10:48:08 AM

[up][up][up] I like the harpoon hand and the beard, but the long wild hair and the outfit made him look more like an underwater hobo.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#111: Sep 6th 2013 at 11:24:30 AM

Relevant. Apparently, Mark Waid and Mike Wieringo pitched an Aquaman story back in 2003. It would follow a marine biologist who got caught up with Aquaman, who was quiet but calm, happy and charming. It was going to be an optimistic story about just how fucking awesome the ocean is, trying to draw on the childhood awe we all had of it, dreams of riding on the backs of whales and such. There wouldn't have been "talks to fish" jokes. Just a nice story about the ocean being really cool.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#112: Sep 6th 2013 at 12:14:29 PM

Writers know this. It's why they so frequently ignore the fact that huge, fiery explosions can't happen in space. Things can explode, but you can't have GIGANTIC INFERNO FIREBALL, which is what people really want to see when they say they want to see things explode. People really like fire. They like fiery explosions. They like people who can create fire. They like volcanic Final Dungeons. Humans love fire

This is comics, not Hollywood. Explosions don't need to be fiery to be impressive in comics. Nor do you need to follow proper physics in the first place.

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#113: Sep 6th 2013 at 2:57:01 PM

"That's why I emphasized "fiery" explosion. Things can explose underwater, but it's nowhere near as visually appealing. You can't have smoldering wrecks, wildfires, flamethrowers, pyrokinesis - effectively the entire spectrum of fire is shut off. "

Just use pretty shades of blue and white.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#114: Sep 6th 2013 at 6:11:56 PM

You don't normally have that stuff in comics, either. Like I said, this isn't like Hollywood. Yes, if a writer wanted to do it, s/he couldn't, but it's not like it's a huge loss.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#115: Sep 6th 2013 at 8:54:08 PM

What King Zeal said.

Tobias, I don't see your point at all. Yes, heaven forbid that we, I don't know, actually try to be creative with the setting and the characters, and aspire to construct an engaging narrative, instead of relying on tired old tropes just so we can appeal to the Lowest Common Denominator. You severely underestimate the creative potential of comic books. Look, I study comics as an art form, and I know certain writers and artists who are more than capable of very innovative story telling.

Tiamatty: That concept sounds awesome.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#116: Sep 6th 2013 at 8:58:42 PM

[up] It actually really does. I love when comic books embrace optimism like that. When they acknowledge that the world is awesome, and try to bring back the joy we took in everything as kids. That childlike awe is something we need to hold onto more, and superhero comics that do that are awesome.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
TheEvilDrBolty Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
#117: Sep 6th 2013 at 9:03:57 PM

That's definitely a very good tack to take with Aquaman. I'm not sure how successful it would be, but it would be a very good read.

I can see why Weiringo's art would have been an issue, though. Weiringo was one of the best comic artists I've ever read, but I can't imagine his art bringing out that sense of wonder that Waid was pitching. It sounds more suited to Bryan Hitch or someone else whose style is more pretty and less cartoony.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#118: Sep 6th 2013 at 9:12:01 PM

That childlike awe is something we need to hold onto more, and superhero comics that do that are awesome.

This. This so much. I'm kinda sick of the "cynicism is cool" mindset. As an aspiring writer, and that spirit is exactly what I'm trying to infuse my work with. grin

Dammit, now I want Mark Waid's Aquaman.

edited 6th Sep '13 9:41:09 PM by Nightwire

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#119: Sep 7th 2013 at 11:45:07 AM

It waxes and wanes. Cynical stories take the place of fluffy idealism, until they grow too dark and people want something brighter. Then, the cycle repeats itself.

TeChameleon Since: Jan, 2001
#120: Sep 8th 2013 at 1:49:40 PM

Y'know, something I always wondered about... why does Atlantis need that freaking enormous magitek navy? It can't exactly be cheap to maintain, magic or otherwise, and given what we've seen of Atlantis (most of the time, anyhow), it's gotta take up a huge percentage of their population to man.

... why?

I'm pretty sure there's some story potential there. eldritch horrors from beyond the deep, sunken alien conquerors, other underwater civilizations (Atlantis is hardly the only sunken continent in mythology and literature- there's Mu, Hyperborea, Thule, Rutas and Lemuria, with just the best-known ones for starters), or even some land-based nation that's been waging war on Atlantis for its resources.

... and as a token nod to the original intent of the thread, 'hey look, it's Captain America, who can do acrobatics and throw a big frisbee at you!'

edited 8th Sep '13 1:50:49 PM by TeChameleon

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#121: Sep 8th 2013 at 1:53:19 PM

My mother actually had that complain about Cap when watching The Avengers. She said at least Black Widow was good for cover stealth ops, and Hawkeye's arrows were so powerful and plot devicey he was okay (plus he could do stealth too), but for her, Cap was just this brightly colored non powered target who jumped around and could beat a small handful of the same Mooks Thor and Hulk could plow through huge numbers of. She didn't even think there was anything really that special about his leadership either.

SaintDeltora The Mistress from The Land Of Corruption and Debauchery Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
The Mistress
#122: Sep 8th 2013 at 1:57:26 PM

[up]And when I asked what my sister though of him she said that he was weak.

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#123: Sep 8th 2013 at 2:14:32 PM

My brother complained that Cap was "the lamest one" until I pointed out that he literally ripped off one of the aliens arms with his bare hands.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#124: Sep 8th 2013 at 2:35:54 PM

How 'bout the Thing, with the power of being really ugly?

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#125: Sep 8th 2013 at 2:45:40 PM

really ugly and about as strong as spider-man! surely the lottery has been struck

In fairness he has gotten significantly stronger since his introduction.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins

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