Ethical Sluttery: Theory and Practice

They sound cool. She doesn't live in Sydney any chance?

No, I don't think so.

Here's an argument I'm bringing from the Pony Fanfiction Thread, where my unwarranted assumption that people were familiar with the concepts I'm trying to grasp brought me under fire a little bit.

I hope that, together, we can clarify whatever mental mess I've got going on, and explain stuff to other readers as well; I wouldn't want people to believe that I look down on the practice of polygamy per se. What I do frown upon is the needy-jealous-mandatory character it takes in our society, which I think causes a lot of unnecessary suffering, even to, no, especially to those who actually want to be with only one person.

You mean monogamy?

Huh. It's been a while since I stopped watching that thread.

Anyways, I think I can agree. If you're holding yourself or another person to that level of perfection, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. It doesn't matter what kind of relationship you have, really. Setting expectations that cannot be reasonably met is a dangerous game to play.

Well, notice how it's a very specific, very romanticized kind of monogamy. Hollywood True Love? (including, of course, Hollywood Sex) In other cultures, there isn't so much talk of lovey dovey ness and promises of eternal mutual bliss, only duty and obligation; you're stuck with your partner forever, but you aren't expected to like it. You get your life satisfaction from fulfilling these inherited duties and approving of yourself (and society approving of you), not from fulfilling your desires (whether they're your own, or taught).

@Handle: *Winces slightly.* That sort of monogamy/monogamous thinking is harmful and one of the biggest things wrong with modern relationships and sexual mores. It is something I despise and work against always.

But that's a False Dichotomy too. In said cultures where matrimony does not necessarily mean romance, there is often not even an attempt to bridge the two. For example, modern fiction either portrays married couples as something that "just works somehow" or as something which makes both parties miserable but equal in their misery. Like Donna Reed versus Married With Children.

I just came up with it. It was obvious in retrospect.

The Monogamyth.

edited 31st Aug '13 8:16:31 AM by TheHandle

That pun is Mythical

@Kyler Thatch Wow, That is a great Nanako avatar! Share? Please?

edited 31st Aug '13 8:59:13 AM by SaintDeltora

Primarily it's a Port Manteau. It is only because of chance that it doubles as a Calembour*

But, now that I think of it, this might be a good opportunity to make a mega-supertrope, because so much of fiction is based upon that monomyth. That bastard is to interpersonal relationships what The Hero's Journey is to overcoming challenges, dangers and the unknown. Hey, King Zeal, what say you? Shall we put forth a YKTTW?

Ok some things I think should be part of any discussion about relationships whether mono or poly. Both work for different people. Or my favourite addage on this. "Different strokes for different folks."

I have to set this up a bit. Back when I was in middle school in Spokane, Washington our sex ed courses taught more then just mechanics and biology. They included awareness of an array of taboos, problems and considerations, and other factors.

It also encompassed some light philosophy on the subject of love and how it can affect relationships.

One of the things that stuck in my mind was the concept of Greek definitions/words/concepts of love.

Link for Greek Words for Love

C.S. Lewis wrote on the concept and defines them rather well Lewis was writing from a Christian perspective but he does cover the concepts rather well and does a good job of explaining some philosophical views on them.

Please check the links and read the relatively short articles before commenting.

I prefer the interpetations of Lewis on the concepts.

It is generally broken down into 4 categories.

Storge, Phileos, Eros, and Agape.

Storge:

Phileos/Philia:

Eros:

Agape:

The general gist is that these concepts can be used to possibly help more clearly define relations between not just two people but also mutliple people at varying levels. You can have more then one type of love for any one person it is not limited to just one at a time.

edited 31st Aug '13 11:10:31 AM by TuefelHundenIV

So what you're suggesting is, "let's establish a common framework and vocabulary to talk about interpersonal relationships, as well as feelings, emotions and other stirrings? I'm all for it, but The Four Loves is a bit too beginner-ish. Also, the problem with labeling relationships is similar to the one with labeling mental diseases; it's of limited use because of how much variety there is in practice, plus Internalized Categorism causes people to want to follow a script as soon as they know it might apply to them, sometimes with disastrous results.

Here's a very, very harmless example: "We've been dating for a year, where do we go from there? Is it time we started thinking about marriage? Should we make it official?"

Here's a harmful example: "I am polyamourous, therefore I must have more than one partner at a time, at all times."

Here's a very harmful example: "I love my lover, therefore I must be jealous of any competitors that flirt with them." "I am polyamourous, therefore I should feel ashamed of feeling jealousy."

I don't think that the four loves is "beginnerish" at all. It's a fundamental, and therefore basic (as in not elaborately expanded on), general concept — what do you mean when you say "I love"? — and that fundamental concept has to be at least understood in common — not held in common, but understood — for there to be a meaningful discussion between the different viewpoints. Without an agreed on commonality, if someone who practices promiscuous ethical sluttery says "I love him" meaning "I feel strong eros toward him; I want him physically", someone who practices not-necessarily-sexual polyamory may easily completely misunderstand what they're saying and hear "I feel agape and philia toward him; I want him to be happy, even though I'm not sexually involved with him.".

Maddy has it. Not necessarily a strict frame work but more a common point of understanding that you can expound on.

What I am suggesting is possibly using them as potential points of general refrence to help explain the nature of relationships with other people that is otherwise a bit more difficult to explain.

Here let me try an exmaple.

I may have eros, storge, as well as phileal type relationship. My wife could have phileal and storge and agape but no eros. We could then decide exactly how far the three of us would allow the relationship to go. The other woman could have any mix of mutual or seperate loves for my wife and I. Say she has storge, phileal, and eros for both us. She may not have Agape now but it could develop later.

Based on the nature of our mutual feelings we can all discuss the nature of our love and how it pertains to our relationship. Say we are all aware of the eros we can discuss whether or not it would be good for all of us to act on it.

If not we still love this person despite the reigning in of the eros part of the love. They are still part of the relationship and those types of love can be just as deep and affectionate without the eros.

We could easily have a very deep, loving, and meaningful relationship with this person.

edited 31st Aug '13 11:28:56 AM by TuefelHundenIV

It just occurred to me that problems like these would make for awesome homework at school:

After fifty such exercises, the kids should become utter wizzes at this shit.

Also, look at this song I only just found!

EDIT: By the way, the interpretations that were made of that letter left me appalled:

edited 12th Sep '13 9:40:36 AM by TheHandle

Hi there,

I'm resurrecting this thread because... I need to talk about this. I find myself in a situation I am not used to, and I don't know what to do about it.

There's two girls that have shown definite interest in me, go out of their way to spend time studying alone with me, and who I both find attractive and interesting, but with whom I have not established a sensuous relationship (as in, we haven't kissed or anything, and every time we meet we focus mostly on the nominal reason we're there).

And then there's another girl, that I met while I was getting to know them. She's poly, she's amazing, and what was meant to be a one night stand is now developing into something we both enjoy, that I think we would both hate to cut off. But she lives seven hours away by boat. And also, given her circumstances, I just don't see a long-term future with her.

And then there's at least two other girls who have been proactive about asking me out, and with whom I've had great first dates but I haven't gotten past the "I'm getting to know you and you seem pretty damn cool so far" stage.

This, to me, a guy who for years and years could never get a date, is, quite frankly, overwhelming. I don't know who to choose, or what to choose, or whether I should talk about it, and with whom. I don't know if I'm pursuing the girls themselves, or just the validation of knowing that they want me. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm terribly afraid of hurting anyone's feelings.

I'm extremely tempted by the opportunity to cheat and double-time. It would be so easy, at first at least. But it would be against everything I stand for and everything I like about myself.

I feel torn, confused, and scared. I also feel elated, privileged, and a little bit smug.

I don't know what to do next.

edited 6th Feb '16 4:51:47 AM by TheHandle

Ladies, gentlemen, and intermediates. Here we have a harem protagonist in his natural habitat.

Ok, serious now. There's really not enough information to go around. Perhaps someone who knows you and them better should answer this. I don't know your preferences, and "this girl and that girl" is not enough to help you figure out whose personalities are mutually attuned with yours.

As someone who's been through a real-life Betty and Veronica dilemma, I can... try to help. But I need to know what do you want? Do you want a polyamorous relationship? Would you be content with something else? Would your partners be?

Also if by some strange delusion you still want my help, P Ms would be appreciated. This thread will probably get locked under necro or something anyway.

The harem protagonist thing made me chuckle out loud. The more I think about it, the more I find out I'm hitting a lot of points in that check-list. It's frightening, really.

I don't want or reject a poly relation as such. It's more like I'm greedy and don't want to lose anything/anyone. I'm a natural hoarder. I want to "win" every relationship I'm in. I want every separation to be amicable, every story to have a happy, satisfying process and conclusion. I want to have a positive impact on everyone I connect with.

And I certainly don't want things to go School Days. God no.

edited 6th Feb '16 8:57:19 AM by TheHandle

You know how in Persona 4 both romantic and non-romantic ends of a Social Link are equally valid? Yeah.

To "win" a relationship and to make a positive impact on these girls, you don't have to be romantically/sexually/both involed with every single one. Friendships are valid endings too.

Also you know how in Persona 4 Golden attempts to be a double-triple-etc-teaming hog backfire horrifically? Yeah.

If you try to have everything, you might end up with nothing. Neither of the girls that were into me were polyamorous(I myself was flexible enough that I can choose monogamy if the partner is worth it), so I had to make a hard choice(both are genuenly great people, it wasn't clear cut in any way besides maybe distance) or lose both.

If you do want a poly relationship, you should prod about and find out if the partners you want to have it with know it too(and understand what it means). Of course, they get to be in relationships with other people too in this setup, I'm just mentioning it because many people miss that tidbit and act jealous anyway. If you don't, things are a bit more straightforward, but the decision must be thought and informed of, especially if you're seeking long-term commitment.

Then, like any good flowchart, it comes down to a lot more choices that I can't help you with because I don't know these people you're talking about. So, um, reflect on your time with them, I guess?

And we suck at figuring out what exactly is "our type". Kind of why online dating is a beehive that I'm personally glad to be out of.

Oh, and speaking of School Days... the boat. The seven hour one. Distance is stress. Huge fucking stress. Stress that will make you feel like you aren't in a relationship at all. Be cautious.

edited 6th Feb '16 9:14:13 AM by Luminosity

Peh, I pity the fools.

Okay, so what I need to do is, in this order:

• Find out how they feel about poly.
• Find out if we want to make things romantic.
• Make choices and establish conventions.

Gah! This all requires tact and courage! Avast!

If you plan on doing some plundering I would hope your prospects are not a flat chest with no booty.

Pirate jokes aside, well, personally I would not ask people online about this. I would get to know their past romantic and relationship experiences, ask them what they are seeking very specifically, and based on their answers and expectations then just. You know. Ask them.

Individually, of course.

Asking here online is a bit weird since we cannot possibly know all the details or another vital point of view which is theirs.

You seem to want to try a polyamorous relationship but you know I dunno about that, since I have no experience or data on it so I would suggest that if this is what you wish to try, to craft the safest emotionally and physically most stable enviroment possible for that where you are not lying on people to do it, and honestly speaking I am not sure if that is even possible. You would know better.

But I cannot suggest lying.

It also sounds like you are in for a world of hurt.

Be Careful What You Wish For

OMINOUS.

I beg your pardon?

I never promised you a rose garden.