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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#201: Dec 8th 2013 at 8:15:41 PM

[up] Well, they certainly want Jerusalem and a buffer zone around it's eastern side, and have been laying claim to other bits.

Hoesntly it almost looks like they're trying to pull what britain did with Northern Ireland- Haul along as many unwilling people and their land as you can while maintaining a majority of the ones that like you. in this case, the settlements and the border areas.

edited 8th Dec '13 8:19:57 PM by joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#202: Dec 8th 2013 at 10:18:28 PM

I have to wonder how the Syrian refugee crisis will affect this balance. I mean yeah, Israel could just shoot them, but if they come in large enough numbers...

trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#203: Dec 8th 2013 at 10:39:42 PM

Shoot them?? Israel was sympathetic to, say, Vietnamese boat people because the Jewish population understood what it meant to seek refuge.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#204: Dec 8th 2013 at 11:12:19 PM

Didn't Matan Vilna'i threaten a shoah on the Palestinians? That sympathy is gone.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#205: Dec 9th 2013 at 12:26:33 AM

Wish some sane politicians on both sides could be elected so they could just draw up a proper peace treaty at least. that'd be a good step in the right direction. As it is, having "destroy israel" elected on one side and "lets just annex this land here" on the other ain't solving shit.
What would seriously help fix this is if the UNSC would finally get its act together and enforce a total ceasefire on both sides, punish those groups/factions on both sides who are guilty of war crimes and/or crimes against humanity targetting people of the other side, and then make sure that whatever the terms of the negotiations that follow all this, they would be backed by a real threat of strict sanctions and even military retaliation to any military transgression.

But of course that's not going to happen. Stupid realpolitik...

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#206: Dec 9th 2013 at 2:07:55 AM

[up]Realpolitik, hell. America's on the UNSC, remember? Our relationship to Israel isn't exactly defined by realpolitik.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#207: Dec 9th 2013 at 2:13:03 AM

[up] Then by Right-Wing, Religious Idiots who want The End of the World as We Know It?note 

edited 9th Dec '13 2:13:58 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#208: Dec 9th 2013 at 5:10:09 AM

[up]Partly, and partly by Israel's well-organized lobbying groups.

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#209: Dec 9th 2013 at 5:16:23 AM

The thing about rebuilding the Temple is that you'd have to demolish the Dome of the Rock, which is akin to dynamiting St Peter's (it being the third holiest place in Sunni Islam), and which is guaranteed to set the Middle East on fire. That said, a very small part of me kind of wants it rebuilt because it won't cause the Rapture and the fundies will look extremely stupid. Doesn't outweigh the consequences though.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#210: Dec 9th 2013 at 6:41:50 AM

It'd certainly cause a hell of an uptick in terrorism and wars though, seeing as it'd be the religious equivalentr to islam of crucifying the pope to the vatican and then burning it down to replace with a mosque.

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#211: Dec 9th 2013 at 7:40:44 AM

[up]

Well, yes, that was the second half of my point. Bear in mind that, from some Jewish perspectives, that has already happened; the Dome of the Rock is built over the Foundation Stone and the Well of Souls, Judaism's holiest site. Some Orthodox rabbis forbid even walking on Temple Mount at all, in case you accidentally disturb the Divine Presence, which is believed to remain where the Holy of Holies once stood.

On a related note: I fucking love Jerusalem, purely because it is the only place in the world where stuff still has awesome names.

edited 9th Dec '13 7:40:58 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#212: Dec 9th 2013 at 9:57:29 AM

Anyone know where I can get recent statistics on demographics for Israel? Wikipedia is untrustworthy in this regard....

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#215: Dec 22nd 2013 at 4:54:51 PM

A very Strongly Worded Letter.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#216: Dec 26th 2013 at 12:26:54 AM

Israel is preparing for war against Hezbollah.

Can anyone confirm this? I find it ridiculous on the sole basis that if you're planning to wage war, then you wouldn't want to telegraph it so clearly that a news outlet would publicize it like this.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#217: Dec 26th 2013 at 3:12:40 AM

It's apparently from a think tank, not the government itself.

Another Israeli adventure in Lebanon would be all sorts of A Bad Idea.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#218: Dec 26th 2013 at 4:06:21 AM

I still find it implausible that Israel would be careless enough that not only can a think tank guess its intentions for waging an aggressive war soon, but would allow said think tank to publish such findings for the general, international public to view at their leisure.

... Of course, it's all too possible that this is an instance of Israel sowing misinformation to scare Hezbollah and its Iranian backers into false alarm out of paranoia, with the hopes of forcing them to stretch their local resources thin in an effort to mount a defense against an invasion that would ultimately never come, and thereby leave themselves vulnerable to collapsing under the strain of doing so while also fighting a bogged battle in Syria.

edited 26th Dec '13 4:07:00 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#220: Dec 26th 2013 at 4:43:44 AM

Dammit cut that shit out with the settlements already. Freaking parasites, asking other Israelis to die in violence so they can live where they feel God wants them to and have the state foot the bill.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
stripes-the-zebra Since: Aug, 2013
#221: Dec 26th 2013 at 6:18:35 AM

[up]

" asking other Israelis to die in violence so they can live where they feel God wants them to and have the state foot the bill."

They should do that stuff while ranting against socialism.

edited 26th Dec '13 6:19:20 AM by stripes-the-zebra

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#222: Dec 26th 2013 at 7:00:13 AM

Why socialism in particular? Is there something that I'm missing?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#224: Dec 26th 2013 at 11:38:15 AM

[up][up] The settlements are communes if I recall, so that might be why.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#225: Dec 26th 2013 at 11:42:13 AM

[up]If they were proper communes than they would provide their own security...

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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