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Israel and Palestine

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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

ManInGray from Israel Since: Jul, 2011
#176: Nov 18th 2013 at 4:35:19 AM

It's even possible that the 75 year-old just died.

Anyway, the PA are continuing to reward and encourage murder.

Issa Abd Rabbo, the most veteran of the prisoners released, received a $60,000 bonus, with the PA reportedly also offering to foot the bill for a wedding should he choose to marry. He was convicted of murdering two Israeli hikers south of Jerusalem in 1984, after tying them up at gunpoint and placing bags over their heads.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#177: Nov 18th 2013 at 5:26:06 AM

It's even possible that the 75 year-old just died.
That's far from likely, as you can't get that much polonium in your body naturally. Someone had to have somehow put in him before he died, and it would've thus been a factor in proportionally increasing the chance of a seemingly "natural" death.

Anyway, the PA are continuing to reward and encourage murder.
The IDF essentially does the same thing, you know. Just saying.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#178: Nov 18th 2013 at 6:18:24 AM

Well, the Russian and French labs have not released their results, and the Swiss are only prepared to go so far as to say that the polonium "moderately supports" the theory he was poisoned. When he was originally autopsied in Paris, incidentally, France had pretty poor relations with Israel and they supposedly didn't find anything.

Even then, there are other ways he could have managed the readings he did. Not necessarily innocent ones: who knows what the Israelis were shelling him with when he was holed up in Ramallah? Or he could have handled it himself, given his position and job. Polonium is rare, but I suppose its not impossible the PA could have got hold of some.

We should be wary of jumping to conclusions; jumping to conclusions leads down bad roads.

edited 18th Nov '13 6:19:44 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#179: Nov 18th 2013 at 6:40:26 AM

That's why I said someone instead of directly accusing any specific party. My main point is that "he could've just died from old age" is a ridiculous hypothesis in light of the evidence that we have so far.

edited 18th Nov '13 6:40:40 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#182: Dec 7th 2013 at 2:11:47 PM

I saw something about a leaked document about the French investigation into Polonium levels in Yasser Arafat's body. The conclusion of that investigation was that he probably died of natural causes. The Swiss study that was published earlier said it couldn't rule out the possibility of assassination, but they didn't say that it was the most likely scenario.

So I guess the studies, while inconclusive, are not in favour of the assassination hypothesis.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#183: Dec 7th 2013 at 2:20:52 PM

Did any of those studies mention the fact that polonium decays so quickly that even if he was assassination, nothing would be left by now that could be used to support that conclusion? I think someone mentioned this here earlier.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#184: Dec 7th 2013 at 4:24:29 PM

@man in gray

And people wonder why I like Israel more...

I'm baaaaaaack
midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#185: Dec 7th 2013 at 5:25:47 PM

Yeah, because its not like israel does roughly the same shit.

I mean, all they do is bulldoze peoples homes, firebomb neighborhoods on the offchance Abbas members live there, and conveniently do everything in their power to steal palestinian land and hand it to israelis while also cutting off palestinian supply chains and convenienytly never mentioning the nukes they definitely dont have.

In short, Palestine has bad elements that need to be arrested, sure, but Israel's pretty much using its connections to big powers like the US to pretty much ignore that Palestinians have any right to be mad. Theyre both at fault, and this will never end unless both sides respect the other.

edited 7th Dec '13 5:27:03 PM by midgetsnowman

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#186: Dec 7th 2013 at 5:29:38 PM

And that's enough about that.

This thread is for discussing news, not blaming either side (or both.)

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#187: Dec 7th 2013 at 5:47:28 PM

[up][up] when "bad elements" include the goverment in power, theres a serious problem. but I digress.

I'm baaaaaaack
Rem Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#188: Dec 7th 2013 at 8:42:54 PM

[up][up][up] It doesn't really help matters that the US is...not the best role model, in this case. More of the opposite, really.

Fire, air, water, earth...legend has it that when these four elements are gathered, they will form the fifth element...boron.
midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#190: Dec 7th 2013 at 9:05:32 PM

Topic, people.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#191: Dec 8th 2013 at 12:31:36 PM

So, anything on raising the Knesset threshold? I heard that had been a big election issue that will likely wipe out what remains of Kadima and will likely either do the same the the Arab/Muslim parties or force them together....

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#192: Dec 8th 2013 at 1:05:34 PM

For a Reminder: The Knesset is Israel's unicameralnote  Parliament with 120 seats. Elections are held using the Party List systemnote , and a party has to pass the ridiculously low election threshold of 2%note  of the total vote to get a seat in the Knesset.

Which obviously means that a lot of minor parties get in, and can hold the Kingmaker position in the inevitable coalition-forming of Israeli Governments (no single Party has ever held a majority). This, combined with Jews Love to Argue, leads to a volatile system where it's a surprise anything gets done.

edited 8th Dec '13 1:11:49 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#193: Dec 8th 2013 at 1:11:07 PM

[up]Hmm. Do you have information on Palestine's government/legislature?

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#194: Dec 8th 2013 at 1:16:07 PM

Not really, I'd have to do some research. I wrote a rather longer post about the Knesset in one the previous threads on this subject.

Either way, the situation appears rather complex — Hamas is in de facto control of the Gaza Strip while the Palestinian Authoritynote  is in effective control of the West Bank.

edited 8th Dec '13 1:17:08 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#197: Dec 8th 2013 at 6:32:17 PM

@Greenmantle: Also, in the last election for Palestinian Authority, Hamas won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council. Many M Ps and ministers were arrested by Israel shortly afterward, leaving the PLC unable to function, and Fatah has permanently suspended elections.

So, in short, right now the Palestinian Authority is functionally a dictatorship again.

edited 8th Dec '13 6:32:39 PM by Ramidel

joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#198: Dec 8th 2013 at 6:50:00 PM

Wish some sane politicians on both sides could be elected so they could just draw up a proper peace treaty at least. that'd be a good step in the right direction. As it is, having "destroy israel" elected on one side and "lets just annex this land here" on the other ain't solving shit.

edited 8th Dec '13 7:39:34 PM by joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#199: Dec 8th 2013 at 7:25:51 PM

[up]

Yeaaah.

Especially when they keep doing both of those 2 things over and over.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#200: Dec 8th 2013 at 7:45:42 PM

The pessimist in me says the whole point is to fait accompli a Palestinian state out of existence, or have ot run as a marginalized Bantustan in perpetuity if they do get recognition.


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