Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's
country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace
. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released
26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed
development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute
publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Well, the Russian and French labs have not released their results, and the Swiss are only prepared to go so far as to say that the polonium "moderately supports" the theory he was poisoned. When he was originally autopsied in Paris, incidentally, France had pretty poor relations with Israel and they supposedly didn't find anything.
Even then, there are other ways he could have managed the readings he did. Not necessarily innocent ones: who knows what the Israelis were shelling him with when he was holed up in Ramallah? Or he could have handled it himself, given his position and job. Polonium is rare, but I suppose its not impossible the PA could have got hold of some.
We should be wary of jumping to conclusions; jumping to conclusions leads down bad roads.
edited 18th Nov '13 6:19:44 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der ParteiThat's why I said someone instead of directly accusing any specific party. My main point is that "he could've just died from old age" is a ridiculous hypothesis in light of the evidence that we have so far.
edited 18th Nov '13 6:40:40 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.edited 4th Dec '13 12:09:09 AM by DeviantBraeburn
Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016Obama sees Israeli-Palestinian deal within months.
I saw something about a leaked document about the French investigation into Polonium levels in Yasser Arafat's body. The conclusion of that investigation was that he probably died of natural causes. The Swiss study that was published earlier said it couldn't rule out the possibility of assassination, but they didn't say that it was the most likely scenario.
So I guess the studies, while inconclusive, are not in favour of the assassination hypothesis.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.Did any of those studies mention the fact that polonium decays so quickly that even if he was assassination, nothing would be left by now that could be used to support that conclusion? I think someone mentioned this here earlier.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.Yeah, because its not like israel does roughly the same shit.
I mean, all they do is bulldoze peoples homes, firebomb neighborhoods on the offchance Abbas members live there, and conveniently do everything in their power to steal palestinian land and hand it to israelis while also cutting off palestinian supply chains and convenienytly never mentioning the nukes they definitely dont have.
In short, Palestine has bad elements that need to be arrested, sure, but Israel's pretty much using its connections to big powers like the US to pretty much ignore that Palestinians have any right to be mad. Theyre both at fault, and this will never end unless both sides respect the other.
edited 7th Dec '13 5:27:03 PM by midgetsnowman
For a Reminder: The Knesset
is Israel's unicameralnote Parliament with 120 seats. Elections are held using the Party List systemnote , and a party has to pass the ridiculously low election threshold of 2%note of the total vote to get a seat in the Knesset.
Which obviously means that a lot of minor parties get in, and can hold the Kingmaker position in the inevitable coalition-forming of Israeli Governments (no single Party has ever held a majority). This, combined with Jews Love to Argue, leads to a volatile system where it's a surprise anything gets done.
edited 8th Dec '13 1:11:49 PM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling OnNot really, I'd have to do some research. I wrote a rather longer post about the Knesset in one the previous threads on this subject.
Either way, the situation appears rather complex — Hamas is in de facto control of the Gaza Strip while the Palestinian Authority
note is in effective control of the West Bank.
edited 8th Dec '13 1:17:08 PM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On@Greenmantle: Also, in the last election for Palestinian Authority, Hamas won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council. Many M Ps and ministers were arrested by Israel shortly afterward, leaving the PLC unable to function, and Fatah has permanently suspended elections.
So, in short, right now the Palestinian Authority is functionally a dictatorship again.
edited 8th Dec '13 6:32:39 PM by Ramidel
Wish some sane politicians on both sides could be elected so they could just draw up a proper peace treaty at least. that'd be a good step in the right direction. As it is, having "destroy israel" elected on one side and "lets just annex this land here" on the other ain't solving shit.
edited 8th Dec '13 7:39:34 PM by joesolo
I'm baaaaaaack

It's even possible that the 75 year-old just died.
Anyway, the PA are continuing to reward and encourage murder.