Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's
country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace
. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released
26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed
development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute
publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
The West or the U.S.? I'm saying this once again, because Mexico is also part of the "West" by geographical association and not political one, since my country normally doesn't cheer on any of the both sides unless forced on by the U.S. and right now three Mexican citizens are kidnapped because of someone's else war we don't have anything related on it-
Edited by luisedgarf on Oct 9th 2023 at 2:18:14 PM
Hoping for the West to become friendly to Palestine is a vain hope.
They don't like Palestinians, and don't understand them; they don't understand their language, think their customs are silly; and they consider their religion to be one of Terror.
Israel, on the other hand, is considered like a Western country, with people who look like westerners, speak English fluently and have decades of friendly media to endear them to the West.
This is true even among those parties that claim to be "inclusive" and "multicultural."
Ilhan Omar and Pramila Jayapal in the U.S. were almost eaten alive by their party for daring to criticize Israel before.
In France Mélenchon is facing criticism for implying that maybe those illegal settlements were the root of the problem?
In conclusion, waiting for sympathy from the west is like waiting for a sea in the desert.
...............
Arab people, on the other hand, are sympathetic to their brethren's plight, and Hamas probably hopes that this operation can cause those governments that try, against their people's wishes, to naturalize with Israel to back down.
............
Well, the political West, as in the U.S. and Western Europe.
Edited by jawal on Oct 9th 2023 at 8:26:30 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurtBriefly OOT, but I believe the more accurate term for countries like Thailand and Mexico, is Global South i.e. formerly(?) colonial countries under deep influence by Western countries, but not allowed to be in equal standing to them, especially on strategic decision-making.
Palestine should fall under the same category.
Modern Israel was literally set up by the West, so of course NATO would want to keep their pet around to exert influence over the Middle East.
Continue writing our story of peace.My point is not that Palestinians can win over "the West", Cold War politics and general cultural similarities has meant that boat has sailed long ago.
But as pointed out, Mexico and Brazil have both been critical of Israel's actions in the past. Their nationals being kidnapped or killed by Hamas is bad PR.
Nepal and Thailand usually don't care about the Israeli-Palestine conflict. But having their citizens held hostage means they all of a sudden have a side they're against.
Yes, America and Europe are absolutely the most important opinions on the global stage with their massive economies and military power.
But the rest of global opinion isn't worth absolutely nothing. Pissing off people whose opinions can actually be still swayed is a bad idea.
I don't think Hamas and Iran care about how they're perceived by the world. They probably already got their political goals out of this, and damn the long-term consequences for Palestinians in general.
Eu reverses earlier announcement that it was suspending development aid to Palestinians
This is kind of odd. Wonder if something happened behind the scenes.
A different article from
re: Palestinian aid from the EU, talk of freezing aid may have been one commissioner jumping the gun and making policy declarations via Twitter.
After six hours scrambling for an explanation, the European Commission appeared to backpedal on an announcement made by the commissioner for neighbourhood and enlargement, Olivér Várhelyi, saying: "There will be no suspension of payments." But it muddied the waters by saying there were "no payments foreseen".
The EU's chief diplomat Josep Borrell, who is in Oman for a summit with Gulf states, insisted humanitarian aid would not be suspended to Palestinians.
"The suspension of the payments — punishing all the Palestinian people — would have damaged the EU interests in the region and would have only further emboldened terrorists," he said.
"We have seen the tweet issued this afternoon by Commissioner Várhelyi ... our understanding is that there is no legal basis for a unilateral decision of this kind by an individual commissioner and we do not expect a suspension of aid," said a spokesperson for the foreign ministry in Dublin.
Madrid and Brussels also expressed reservations, with Belgium announcing development and humanitarian aid would continue. "It is important we do not act hastily," it said.
Edited by Blueeyedrat on Oct 9th 2023 at 1:13:03 AM
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The opinions of the globe are part of the reason why Israel has slowly taken land settlement by settlement rather than just ethnically cleanse Gaza Strip and the West Bank in one go.
A slower annexation for the Palestinians still sucks obviously, but it's better to have more time than less time.
Edited by bobwolf on Oct 9th 2023 at 4:18:48 AM
This, by the way, is why I'd like an ironclad international response as soon as we can push AIPAC's influence out of our foreign policy clique. Right now, the only moderates (or indeed, the only ones who don't consider atrocities to be a perk) are those who aren't involved.
Edited by Ramidel on Oct 9th 2023 at 12:27:57 AM
Palestine deaths toll at around 700
I've seen this the difference in language in multiple places Israelis 'were killed' or 'massacred' while Palestinians 'have died'
Why?
This seems like wild speculation with no apparent basis.
Edited by StyxD on Oct 9th 2023 at 10:31:59 AM
The state of TV Tropes.

Thailand isn't the West?
And when did Israel kidnap Thai tourists?