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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

bobwolf from anywhere Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: That's rough, buddy
#16376: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:07:21 PM

Thailand isn't the West?

And when did Israel kidnap Thai tourists?

luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#16377: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:17:04 PM

The West was never going to be pro-Plaestine, even if they fought the most noble and chivalrous war the world has ever known.

The West or the U.S.? I'm saying this once again, because Mexico is also part of the "West" by geographical association and not political one, since my country normally doesn't cheer on any of the both sides unless forced on by the U.S. and right now three Mexican citizens are kidnapped because of someone's else war we don't have anything related on it-

Edited by luisedgarf on Oct 9th 2023 at 2:18:14 PM

jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#16378: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:24:43 PM

Hoping for the West to become friendly to Palestine is a vain hope.

They don't like Palestinians, and don't understand them; they don't understand their language, think their customs are silly; and they consider their religion to be one of Terror.

Israel, on the other hand, is considered like a Western country, with people who look like westerners, speak English fluently and have decades of friendly media to endear them to the West.

This is true even among those parties that claim to be "inclusive" and "multicultural."

Ilhan Omar and  Pramila Jayapal in the U.S. were almost eaten alive by their party for daring to criticize Israel before.

In France Mélenchon is facing criticism for implying that maybe those illegal settlements were the root of the problem?

In conclusion, waiting for sympathy from the west is like waiting for a sea in the desert.

...............

Arab people, on the other hand, are sympathetic to their brethren's plight, and Hamas probably hopes that this operation can cause those governments that try, against their people's wishes, to naturalize with Israel to back down.

............

[up]

Well, the political West, as in the U.S. and Western Europe.

Edited by jawal on Oct 9th 2023 at 8:26:30 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
BlackKnight359 Since: Jan, 2012
#16379: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:28:31 PM

Briefly OOT, but I believe the more accurate term for countries like Thailand and Mexico, is Global South i.e. formerly(?) colonial countries under deep influence by Western countries, but not allowed to be in equal standing to them, especially on strategic decision-making.

Palestine should fall under the same category.

luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#16380: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:34:58 PM

[up]Personally, I hate such terms, including Globlal South, since those are discriminatory by default in the sense that we are less worthy than those from the countries allied with the U.S., basically the U.S., the Anglosphere and the countries from the NATO.

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#16381: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:35:36 PM

Modern Israel was literally set up by the West, so of course NATO would want to keep their pet around to exert influence over the Middle East.

Continue writing our story of peace.
Scarecrow4774 from In Wonderland Since: Mar, 2017 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#16382: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:38:00 PM

Ireland is the political West and has supported Palestine.

“We’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.” - Lewis Carroll
bobwolf from anywhere Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: That's rough, buddy
#16383: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:40:38 PM

My point is not that Palestinians can win over "the West", Cold War politics and general cultural similarities has meant that boat has sailed long ago.

But as pointed out, Mexico and Brazil have both been critical of Israel's actions in the past. Their nationals being kidnapped or killed by Hamas is bad PR.

Nepal and Thailand usually don't care about the Israeli-Palestine conflict. But having their citizens held hostage means they all of a sudden have a side they're against.

Yes, America and Europe are absolutely the most important opinions on the global stage with their massive economies and military power.

But the rest of global opinion isn't worth absolutely nothing. Pissing off people whose opinions can actually be still swayed is a bad idea.

StyxD Lights Out! from rimward of west (Emeritus Troper) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Lights Out!
#16384: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:49:58 PM

[up] I don't think Hamas and Iran care about how they're perceived by the world. They probably already got their political goals out of this, and damn the long-term consequences for Palestinians in general.

The state of TV Tropes.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#16385: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:55:15 PM

[up]

Yeah, the only audience Hamas really cares about is their backers in the region.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#16386: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:56:59 PM

[up][up]

They do care about the Arab world's opinion.

Also, Hamas is popular among Palestinians in general, certainly more so than Abbas and the corrupt Fatah.

Edited by jawal on Oct 9th 2023 at 8:57:36 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#16387: Oct 9th 2023 at 12:58:53 PM

at this point they're utterly rabid,they don't care who they hurt or how many lives they destroy.

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Oct 9th 2023 at 8:59:10 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#16388: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:11:53 PM

Eu reverses earlier announcement that it was suspending development aid to Palestinians This is kind of odd. Wonder if something happened behind the scenes.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Blueeyedrat Since: Oct, 2010
#16389: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:11:54 PM

A different article from [up] re: Palestinian aid from the EU, talk of freezing aid may have been one commissioner jumping the gun and making policy declarations via Twitter.

The EU has been plunged into a diplomatic row after an announcement that it was to suspend "all payments" to Palestinians as a result of Hamas's attacks on Israel led to clashes with several member states including Ireland, Spain and the Netherlands.

After six hours scrambling for an explanation, the European Commission appeared to backpedal on an announcement made by the commissioner for neighbourhood and enlargement, Olivér Várhelyi, saying: "There will be no suspension of payments." But it muddied the waters by saying there were "no payments foreseen".

The EU's chief diplomat Josep Borrell, who is in Oman for a summit with Gulf states, insisted humanitarian aid would not be suspended to Palestinians.

"The suspension of the payments — punishing all the Palestinian people — would have damaged the EU interests in the region and would have only further emboldened terrorists," he said.

Ireland and Luxembourg questioned the statement, heaping embarrassment on commission officials who had indicated any decisions on funding would be taken at an emergency meeting of EU foreign ministers on Tuesday.

"We have seen the tweet issued this afternoon by Commissioner Várhelyi ... our understanding is that there is no legal basis for a unilateral decision of this kind by an individual commissioner and we do not expect a suspension of aid," said a spokesperson for the foreign ministry in Dublin.

Madrid and Brussels also expressed reservations, with Belgium announcing development and humanitarian aid would continue. "It is important we do not act hastily," it said.

Edited by Blueeyedrat on Oct 9th 2023 at 1:13:03 AM

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#16390: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:13:13 PM

But the rest of global opinion isn't worth absolutely nothing. Pissing off people whose opinions can actually be still swayed is a bad idea.

Does the rest of global opinion change anything about the Palestinian situation? No? Then it's worth nothing.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#16391: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:15:41 PM

So uh curious if Gaza ends up fully annexed which is probably where were heading. How will that work. They didn't do that before because it would be difficult to control.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#16392: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:16:47 PM

Seen reported on Australian TV that HAMAS has threatened to execute one hostage on live TV for every home destroyed by Israel. I don't see this de-escalating anytime soon.

bobwolf from anywhere Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: That's rough, buddy
#16393: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:18:28 PM

[up][up][up]

The opinions of the globe are part of the reason why Israel has slowly taken land settlement by settlement rather than just ethnically cleanse Gaza Strip and the West Bank in one go.

A slower annexation for the Palestinians still sucks obviously, but it's better to have more time than less time.

Edited by bobwolf on Oct 9th 2023 at 4:18:48 AM

TURI12345 Since: May, 2021
#16394: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:23:02 PM

Question except of me how many Israelis have here?

אני הולך להתחרט על זה שהגבתי כאן לא? בעצם לא אני כבר מחרט.

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#16395: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:23:34 PM

I'm sure the Palestinians appreciate being killed slowly to global indifference than killed quickly to global indifference.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#16396: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:24:52 PM

[up][up][up]

More time for what, though?

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Oct 9th 2023 at 10:25:03 AM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#16397: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:26:55 PM

Both Hamas & Likud-led Israel have spent 25 years methodically trying to eliminate (or worse) all traces of moderation within their ranks.

This, by the way, is why I'd like an ironclad international response as soon as we can push AIPAC's influence out of our foreign policy clique. Right now, the only moderates (or indeed, the only ones who don't consider atrocities to be a perk) are those who aren't involved.

Edited by Ramidel on Oct 9th 2023 at 12:27:57 AM

Gaiazun Since: Jul, 2020
#16398: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:28:47 PM

Palestine deaths toll at around 700

I've seen this the difference in language in multiple places Israelis 'were killed' or 'massacred' while Palestinians 'have died'

StyxD Lights Out! from rimward of west (Emeritus Troper) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Lights Out!
#16399: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:31:44 PM

The opinions of the globe are part of the reason why Israel has slowly taken land settlement by settlement rather than just ethnically cleanse Gaza Strip and the West Bank in one go.

Why?

This seems like wild speculation with no apparent basis.

Edited by StyxD on Oct 9th 2023 at 10:31:59 AM

The state of TV Tropes.
bobwolf from anywhere Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: That's rough, buddy
#16400: Oct 9th 2023 at 1:40:55 PM

Hey, if I've got cancer, I'd rather it kill me in 5 years than in 1 year.

More time living on Palestinian soil is better than less.


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