Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's
country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace
. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released
26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed
development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute
publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
The closest we got to it being a thing that could have happened was under Rabin.
And then the Israeli right murdered him because his willingness to give back any land taken by Israel made him a traitor to Zionism in their eyes.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Oct 9th 2023 at 1:48:58 PM
We learn from history that we do not learn from historyRegarding the subject of foreigners in Israel who hail from countries entirely unrelated to the conflict and pretty much have no recent (or even any) history of supporting Israel and/or being hostile to Palestine... Do you honestly think that members of a population that has been thoroughly traumatized, antagonized, ostracized and pretty much trampled upon by what for all intents and purposes is the entire world for decades would know that or even care?
I will say it again: Do not be surprised when people who have been deprived of literally every option to conduct their struggle in a civilized, humane and moral manner without being brutally tortured and/or murdered for their trouble and pretty much nothing as a "reward" for that expended effort, decide to reject the notion of acting civilized, humane and moral in favor of avenging themselves in whatever manner they see fit.
Seriously, it never ceases to amaze me how many people are able to accept that it's society to blame when someone steals because they live in abject poverty and have been denied any option to sustain themselves besides theft, but somehow cannot apply that same principles to the Palestinians being driven by their circumstances to embrace terrorism as a modus operandi.
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People insisted upon it because it was ultimately more practical (read: more convenient to implement) than a one-state solution, which would've required a constant military presence by third parties to enforce lest the obvious powder keg explode in very short order.
What most people who advocate(d) don't/didn't realize is that the solution retains the same problem, just manifesting in a different manner. The two resulting states would inevitably go to war with each other because they view each other as an existential threat, unless both are effectively put under third-party military occupation and their respective education systems thoroughly regulated by third parties to heavily promote integration for at least a century, to ensure that everyone that is hostile to integration either dies out or becomes too feeble with old age to have any influence, and the newer generations would not be indoctrinated with any of the hatred, paranoia, etc. that many of their forebears would try to pass on to them.
TLDR people thought they had a conveniently easy solution for an incredibly complex problem, and are surprised when they're told that they need to actually work their ass off for a very long time to make it work, instead of just signing on a piece of paper and expecting two bitter enemies to suddenly forget all of their past enmity and/or selfish ambition.
Edited by MarqFJA on Oct 9th 2023 at 3:15:05 PM
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.Worst case scenario: Tel Aviv activates the Samson option, and the massed Western forces prove to lack the will to retaliate.
Sorry to bring this back again, but I just can't get over the fact that you think nuclear weapons are just some cute little toys that a sufficiently large army can just shrug off.
Those things are called weapons of mass destruction for a reason you know.
The exact number of nuclear warheads possessed by Israel isn't precisely known but the quick estimates I looked up range anywhere from 80-400, with estimates around the 90-120 range being the most likely. How many of those are actually ready to deploy at a moment's notice is anyone's guess.
Edited by 4maskwolf on Oct 9th 2023 at 7:50:15 AM
The EU is suspending all aid payments to Palestine
https://www.dw.com/en/israel-eu-suspends-all-aid-payments-to-palestinians/live-67035514
Considering the scale of the attack and multiple reports of people from other nations (including China) being captured or worse killed by the Hamas, this was inevitable. The consequences of striking first is now rearing its ugly head. As I said before, violence may be tempting and sweet... but it never leads to anything good. Just makes things worse.
Half that money was supposed to go to the PA in the West Bank, with the rest going to NGOs. If the PA can't pay for salaries and public services, it's going to further weaken their governance of the West Bank and give room for Hamas to expand their foothold there.
Like, this is the exact playbook that Hamas have employed ever since they came to power. The rank-and-file might be in it for empowerment and vengeance, but all the brutality was absolutely calculated. They want to polarise public opinion so their people won't start agreeing with moderates in the other camp; they want economic opportunities to dry up so that they get full control over their people's livelihoods. The PA is ineffectual and corrupt as they come, but defunding it right this moment means playing right into Hamas' hands.
One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.I feel like logical discussion is not going to change anyone's mind here right now.
This is a "tribal" issue, who's team you are is what will decide who you sympathize with.
For the pro-Palestine camp, ( as 90% of Arabs are), they look from the perspective of more than half a century of injustice and tyranny, so they will not empathize with Israel, and get set up by the hypocrisy of the West.
On the other hand, for the pro-Israel camp, they only care about Israeli lives and don't particularly empathize with the Arabs (possibly because of differences in culture and origins), so if they have to choose between one Israeli life, and the entire sector of Gaza getting destroyed, they will go for the former.
.............
Honestly, the Arab forums, that cheer the death, or the pro-Israel camp that salivates at the idea of "Tanks are on their way to Gaza, this is their end, it will be deadly,it will be swift, and it will be AWESOME" or " I want to see Hamas's BLOOD now" are the most honest among us, they don't try to both side, or pretend like they are calling for peace and harmony, when in reality they want the other camp crushed.
Edited by jawal on Oct 9th 2023 at 6:33:45 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt![]()
Honestly I’ve been tempted to post your last sentence many a time. But especially in the last 24 hours. I come across a lot on social media the idea that because the creation of Israel was a “crime” there are no Israeli civilians and any atrocities committed against them are morally justified.
And I’m pretty sure that whenever people talk about settler colonialism or apartheid state they mean the same thing but are tiptoeing around it using the cover of academic language.
I almost prefer the honesty of the Palestinian protesters in New York and Chicago who are openly celebrating the killings, doing throat slitting gestures and chanting “700”.
Edited by Hodor2 on Oct 9th 2023 at 10:35:23 AM
Good to know I'm apparently pro-atrocities against civilians now.
Seriously, what the fuck is this? Can people maybe stop trying to accuse anybody critical of Israel's government of being secretly pro-Hamas? That'd be great.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Oct 9th 2023 at 7:44:34 PM
We learn from history that we do not learn from history![]()
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Both Hamas & Likud-led Israel have spent 25 years methodically trying to eliminate (or worse) all traces of moderation within their ranks. It's sadly not surprising that only the fanatics remain today, and that for some, not celebrating civilian deaths or an incoming series of war crimes sounds alien.
That doesn't mean people should ditch their moralities and just embrace either the dark or light side (whichever you think is which).
Edited by Bexlerfu on Oct 9th 2023 at 7:48:42 PM
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I agree that's an unfair criticism. It's missing the forest for the trees. Noone here wants anyone to die. My greatest fear is that a lot of innocent people will be massacred just because of where they were born while the world watches on. It's depressing
Edited by Xopher001 on Oct 9th 2023 at 10:49:45 AM
X5
Yeah, I also posted this in the German Politics thread.
Just imagine the sheer terror of a mother recognizing her child like that....
Edited by Forenperser on Oct 9th 2023 at 7:58:08 PM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianThey're many people who don't have a side in the war, who didn't identify with either side.
But Hamas killing and kidnapping people from some of these nations will hurt Palestinian reputation in those countries.
There may be context to explain the motivations but Thai tourists being kidnapped is just plain bad PR.
And that does matter.
The attention of the world hasn't stopped Israel's actions but it had meant they couldn't act as freely as they wished.
I mean, less than a few hours after the attack, and before news of the foreign kidnappers broke, the world leaders went on TV to explain how they are on Israel's side 1,000,000%.
The West was never going to be pro-Plaestine, even if they fought the most noble and chivalrous war the world has ever known.
I mean, women and children were killed by the dozens for protesting peacefully near the separate fence, and the world was totally okay. At best, someone will say something like, "We urge both sides to maintain peace."
.......................
Anyway, I hope for any innocent foreigner that was captured to be fine and released, and that their families find hope and solace.
Edited by jawal on Oct 9th 2023 at 7:32:05 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt![]()
Considering that the world turned a blind eye when Israel does the same, I don't think Palestine is losing much by the sheer virtue of not having a much to lose.

One misconception we need to let go of regarding Israel's settler colonialism and mistreatment of the Palestinians is that this is somehow a new thing.
It isn't; Netanyahu's more blatant about it, but the core idea has a long history going all the way back to the country's founders. What did change over time was that people in charge realised the Palestinian population wouldn't just accept becoming a servile underclass or silently fade away.
Heck, even the one leader who actually tried to pursue peace used to be involved in some vile government actions before he wanted to try a different route - and then he got murdered after Netanyahu repeatedly incited violence against him.
Israel isn't an apartheid state because they were forced into becoming one - that was pretty much the strategy from the get-go and is a major reason for Palestinian resenment flaring up very soon after the first settlements were set up in the region.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Oct 9th 2023 at 1:36:44 PM
We learn from history that we do not learn from history