Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
A procrastination in of itself
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
X3 It is also a religion, also even within the ethnicity it is not a whites-only group, which is how it is being defined by the people doing the DNA testing.
I really don’t think it’s a good idea to defend genetic testing by people with a history of considering non-whites genetically inferior.
On the government stuff, could a Confidence and Supply agreement appear? Where a part doesn’t join the government but still gives it enough support for it to stay in power?
Edited by Silasw on Sep 20th 2019 at 9:17:35 AM
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
x4. There’s definitely an ethnic aspect to it, but in today’s globalized society, that means less than it used to.
Although religion is usually passed down in families, I imagine that a not insignificant population of people within the Jewish faith who have converted, or who’s families converted and grew up with the faith, or kids adopted into Jewish Families, etc.
Edited by megaeliz on Sep 20th 2019 at 6:59:27 AM
Jacobin has an article about the election nicely describes the situation, Israel Elects Apartheid
It's a sobering look at how despite the good news of Netenyahu's defeat, the wretched nature of Israeli politics is unlikely to change substantively. More or less all of Israel's major parties hold the same, or at least very similar, beliefs as him.
It's not really surprising but it is terrible 
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:36:24 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Jacobin has a horrible story with apologia for all types of Leftist dictator, use another magazine if you want to share the info because using Jacobin "USA is behind all evils in the multiverse" Magazine is a easy way to lose respect
Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 21st 2019 at 10:47:20 AM
Watch me destroying my country
To say nothing of the sterilization program for Ethiopian Jews
Well, that makes it harder to appreciate The Red Sea Diving Resort...
Edited by HallowHawk on Sep 22nd 2019 at 12:42:07 AM
Since the article was not about the US Jacobin's biases has no relevance. Not to mention that while they are biased their accuracy is high.
It's unfortunate if anyone loses respect for me but that isn't enough to make me stop posting it.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2019 at 9:44:04 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Oh, bother.
It's generally a good idea to avoid sources that biased anyway, regardless of which direction that bias is in.
No Jacobin, no FOX News, no Reason, no Intercept, etc. Heck, I personally steer clear of Huffington Post, and that's not on Jacobin's level.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Every source is biased, it is entirely impossible to escape bias. Any source that claims to be unbiased is likely to be the most biased of all.
What matters is whether or not that bias interferes with accuracy, nothing more. And on that front, Jacobin is more than acceptable.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Oh, bother.
Going "all sources are biased anyway" doesn't make it better when you go for some of the most biased sources.
It shouldn't be too hard to find a less biased source on this issue anyway.
Edited by M84 on Sep 21st 2019 at 6:03:44 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
I'm not seeing any actual evidence beyond "Jacobin is biased therefore you shouldn't cite it".
I already provided proof that Jacobin is not counterfactual propaganda like Fox News, if you want me to not post its articles you'll have to give me a reason. And so far? None of you have done anything of the sort.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Oh, bother.
I'd say the strong bias is reason enough. Even if the facts themselves are accurate, the loaded language that is mentioned in the Factcheck entry is dangerous. Especially if it's not the only Jacobin material one is reading.
Edited by M84 on Sep 21st 2019 at 6:08:44 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Jacobin is definitely propaganda tho. Like, it actively has articles crying about how Juan Guaido is a Right Wing dictator backed for USA, heck.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 21st 2019 at 5:08:23 AM
Watch me destroying my country
A procrastination in of itself
If nothing else propaganda outlets are good to avoid because people won’t follow your source if it gives clicks to a propaganda outlet.
If it was having a discussion about the colour of the sky with someone and they linked to the Daily Mail saying that the sky is blue I’d demand another source, because even if they’re right like hell am I giving the Mail my ad views.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
If y'all want to disprove its claims you absolutely can, but I'm not going to stop using a factual source just because it's socialist.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2019 at 3:14:24 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Shin Megami Tensei IV
America Rising Pac is basically, Republican propaganda based on publishing Bad News about Democrats.
Verdict?
Factual Reporting: HIGH
...Yeah, biases kinda matter
I care because—to be blunt—Jacobin Mag. is a page that just serves for apologia of dictators.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 21st 2019 at 5:18:01 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Oh, bother.
Heck, I wouldn't even link to Marketwatch, and that's "only" Right-Center Bias. And it also has "High" Factual Reporting. So does Reason for that matter.
Edited by M84 on Sep 21st 2019 at 6:20:31 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Hmm, let's look:
In 2017, America Rising, through its lawyer, sought e-mails of career employees of the Environmental Protection Agency who criticized President Donald Trump or EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt. The e-mail requests provoked fears of political retribution and was described by critics as a “witch hunt.”
Although they do not report favorably on environmental protection and regulation, a factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check.
Overall, we rate America Rising PAC Right Biased based on story selection and political advocacy that always favors the Republican Party. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to a clean fact check record. (M. Huitsing 6/19/2019)
Yeah, that seems tolerable by the standards of Republican associated media. Heavily slanted, but not fake news like the Daily Mail, Fox News, or Breitbart.
Not to mention that the comparison doesn't work, being slanted in favor of the Republicans (i.e far-right reactionaries) is very bad. While being slanted in favor of socialism is not comparable.
The only thing this is convincing me of is that Jacobin is a tolerable source to use.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2019 at 3:22:10 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Fair enough.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
"Not to mention that the comparison doesn't work, being slanted in favor of the Republicans (i.e far-right reactionaries) is very bad. While being slanted in favor of socialism is not comparable"
If they used maduro propaganda about Guido Being dictator pro US they already cross the línea into un trutable news and as a Venezuela, Is annoying some would Trust a page that spew that crap.
Really, i get US have a patological adversion to bothsiding but cmon
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Beware the Crazy Man.
getting a bit off topic here guys.....
How are the coalition talks going?
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
They aren't.
The whole election was a disaster.
ok boomer
Servant of the Omnissiah
In short, Blue and White won't work with Likud if Bibi is still in charge - which is unacceptable to Likud.
Lieberman wont be doing much until the Arab bloc decides on who it's going to back (Hint - Not Likud).
In short, it's a clusterfuck with no end in sight for a few months.
I hold the secrets of the machine.
And neither Joint List nor UTJ will let Lieberman anywhere near the Government.
Election #3?
I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity - and considering Israeli state rabbis have tried to deny people's Jewishness based purely on genetics before, this is an issue.
It's especially been a problem for Eastern European Jews who've been migrating to Israel over recent years and are extremely wary of DNA tests trying to determine their Jewishness for pretty obvious reasons.
There's a quote from this article
that sums up the uneasiness people have with these kinda practices really well:
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 20th 2019 at 11:14:23 AM
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.