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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#13576: Aug 30th 2018 at 3:47:34 PM

Continuing on the Bibi theme, he appears to be going full supervillain.

What's precedent ever done for us?
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#13577: Aug 30th 2018 at 3:59:37 PM

He really doesn't give a shit anymore, does he?

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#13578: Aug 30th 2018 at 4:29:23 PM

That's more like "outright paraphrasing Hitler".

No,really.

Compare:

The weak crumble, are slaughtered and are erased from history while the strong, for good or for ill, survive. The strong are respected, and alliances are made with the strong, and in the end peace is made with the strong. - Benjamin Netanyahu, 2018

With:

The whole of nature is a mighty struggle between strength and weakness, an eternal victory of the strong over the weak. - Adolf Hitler, 1923

Edited by Balmung on Aug 30th 2018 at 6:31:34 AM

CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#13579: Aug 30th 2018 at 4:41:08 PM

Nice job making Palestine and Iran look better than you and more sympathetic, Israel.

Edited by CookingCat on Aug 30th 2018 at 4:42:10 AM

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#13580: Aug 30th 2018 at 5:34:30 PM

Let's be fair now: The nation known as "Israel" is not a monolith.

... On the other hand, Netanyahu is only where he is due to the portion of the Israeli electorate whose votes ultimately brought Likud to power.

Edited by MarqFJA on Aug 30th 2018 at 3:36:19 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#13581: Aug 30th 2018 at 6:13:38 PM

I guess it depends on how many Israeli citizens think Netanyahu's bigoted xenophobic nationalist horseshit is a feature rather than a bug.

Edited by M84 on Aug 30th 2018 at 9:15:47 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#13582: Aug 30th 2018 at 6:32:50 PM

It is the fundamental problem with a democracy where approximately a third of the people under its effective control are not considered citizens with voting rights, and where the press is only partly free. At that point, you’ve just got a tyranny of the majority with dangerously few safeguards.

Speaking of effective control, it seems Gaza’s sea territory is getting significantly more fortified. Given how ambiguous the Israel-Gaza border is (putting a ‘security buffer’ within someone else’s sovereign territory is not generally considered appropriate, for one thing), I’m not entirely sure how this new structure will interact with the two countries’ internationally-recognised territory.

What's precedent ever done for us?
KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#13583: Aug 31st 2018 at 12:12:29 AM

[up][up] Given how he keeps managing to remain in power, I think the answer is "too many"

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#13584: Aug 31st 2018 at 9:52:16 PM

US ends aid to Palestinian refugee agency Unrwa

The United States is ending all funding for the UN's Palestinian refugee agency, the US State Department says.

It described the organisation, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa), as "irredeemably flawed".

The US administration has "carefully reviewed" the issue and "will not make additional contributions to Unrwa," spokeswoman Heather Nauert said.

A spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas later said the move was an "assault" against his people.

"Such a punishment will not succeed to change the fact that the United States no longer has a role in the region and that it is not a part of the solution," Nabil Abu Rudeina told Reuters news agency.

He added that the decision was "a defiance of UN resolutions".

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#13585: Sep 1st 2018 at 12:43:51 PM

Great, now begins an at-least-decades-long upsurge in already-existing distrust for the USA among Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular. Even if the Democrats manage to take both the presidency and the Congress for the next few generations, I seriously doubt they'll be able to repair their country's credibility in the region.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
nnokwoodeye1 Since: May, 2012
#13586: Sep 2nd 2018 at 4:20:34 AM

[up][up][up] While Bibi has his die-hard fans, a lot of his voters only vote for him because they fear his replacement would be worse. That's the problem when a leader stay in power too long, people get used to him and can't imagine anybody else in the job

[up] That's not necessarily a bad thing. A lot of the problems with the conflict, I think, come from the fact that each side is busy negotiating with the Americans, instead of with each other. That's not how mediation suppose to work. Maybe a little distrust toward uncle Sam would solve this problem

Edited by nnokwoodeye1 on Sep 2nd 2018 at 4:34:30 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#13587: Sep 2nd 2018 at 4:37:12 AM

The problem with that is that there's a long history of people on each side killing each other. That's why a third party is needed to mediate things — to ensure that they don't kill each other while negotiating. It's kind of hard to negotiate when you're genuinely worried about whether the other person across the table is going to use this meeting as a pretense to shoot you.

Edited by M84 on Sep 2nd 2018 at 7:38:02 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#13588: Sep 2nd 2018 at 6:00:35 AM

Thing is the US hasn’t really been a neutral third party for a long time, so dropping the pretence and letting an actual neutral third party come in might do some good.

We just need an actual neutral third party to step up.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
nnokwoodeye1 Since: May, 2012
#13589: Sep 2nd 2018 at 12:57:06 PM

The problem is bigger than that. In the last few years it seems that each side doesn't actually think they need to convince the other side of anything, that as long as they convinced the US, it wold make sure that what they want would be in the final agreement, regardless of what the other side wants.

As long as each side would continue to believe the other side is irrelevant, there won't be any negotiations

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#13590: Sep 2nd 2018 at 2:02:31 PM

I’m not sure that that has much bearing on the presence or absence of the US except as a source of funding for the IDF. There’s no real need for the current Israeli government to negotiate because things are exactly as they want them to be - they’re choking the life out of Gaza (and, to a lesser extent, the West Bank), and they’re doing it slowly enough not to seriously risk either meaningful international condemnation or meaningful casualties until the ‘facts on the ground’ are established and it’s too late for anyone to reverse it.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#13591: Sep 5th 2018 at 5:48:07 PM

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-45423581

The new Paraguayan administration is going to move the embassy back to Tel Aviv.

The Israeli embassy will be closed.

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#13592: Sep 5th 2018 at 6:03:32 PM

Good for them. More than just spitting in the faces of Netanyahu and his like-minded ilk, let Trump stew over this blatant snubbing of his own decision to recognize Israel's claim over the whole of Jerusalem as its capital and moving the US embassy to Israel accordingly, since the previous Paraguayan president's decision to move his own country's embassy similarly was done in response to Trump's own move.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#13593: Sep 6th 2018 at 12:25:08 AM

[up][up]

I assume you mean Jerusalem Embassy rather than Israeli Embassy?

But otherwise, yes. Good call.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#13594: Sep 6th 2018 at 12:29:08 AM

Israel is closing their embassy in Paraguay in response to Paraguay moving their embassy back to Tel Aviv.

Edited by M84 on Sep 7th 2018 at 3:28:43 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#13595: Sep 6th 2018 at 6:42:36 AM

The Israeli Supreme Court has rejected a stay against the demolition of the small Bedouin village of Khan al-Ahmar in Area C of the West Bank, and it will likely be razed within the week. The village has been there since at least the 1930s, although it swelled to its current size after refugees from the Negev desert arrived there after being expelled by the IDF in the 1950s.

Its current troubles stem from the nature of its construction - it's made of temporary shacks that need to be replaced every few years, and it's functionally impossible for Palestinians in Area C to get building permits - between 2010 and 2014, 2,020 requests were submitted and only 33 were approved. More pressingly, it's between two large, expanding settlements, and they, along with the settler lobbying group Regavim, have been pushing for the village's destruction so that they can build on what they hold to be illegally-occupied Israeli land. The result of this will be to entirely bisect Palestinian territory within the West Bank, since Khan al-Ahmar is at the heart of a narrow passage between two Palestinian areas. For the record, the Geneva Convention only allows the destruction of civilian property in occupied territory under the strictest military necessity, so this is almost certainly a war crime.

Assuming that the current provisions are still in place, the villagers have been instructed to move to the larger village of Abu Dis, in an area which is already the property of another tribe who aren't inclined to share, which is situated next to a landfill site, and which will allow each family and their livestock a space of approximately 250 square metres - that's just under sixteen metres to a side.

There's a metaphor in here somewhere.

What's precedent ever done for us?
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#13596: Sep 6th 2018 at 6:48:56 AM

And people still dare to try defending this monster of a government. Fuck Godwin's Law, they're little better than the Nazis at this point.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#13597: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:05:12 PM

Israel is closing their embassy in Paraguay in response to Paraguay moving their embassy back to Tel Aviv.

Ah. Fair enough.

nnokwoodeye1 Since: May, 2012
#13598: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:10:54 PM

[up][up] No, sorry, Godwin's law is still on.

First, there is the cold fact that if Israel was anything like the Nazi. the Palestinians would have been extinct years ago. but beyond that, there is a more philosophical aspect to Godwin that I think a lot of people miss:

Basically, since in the public consciousness the Nazi are perceived as one dimensional cartoon villains, when someone compare something to them in a discussion, they basically expect an instant win. after all, if your argument is cartoonish, there is no possible way for anybody to take it seriously.

The thing is, people don't actually work that way. if you call their arguments stupid or evil, they are not going to stop believing in those arguments, they are just going to stop discussing them with you, and since the purpose of the discussion is to convince them that you are right, you basically lost the moment they left it.

Of course, you could argue that if they believe something so evil, there is no point in trying to convince them, and that instead, your purpose should be to convince others not to listen to them. this approach assume that public opinion matters in this kind of situation, which isn't always the case. if it was there wouldn't still be Neo-Nazis in the world. they wouldn't be able to withstand all the Godwining around them.

Edited by nnokwoodeye1 on Sep 6th 2018 at 4:13:00 AM

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#13599: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:59:07 PM

It’s worth remembering that the Nazis didn’t go zero to Holocaust in sixty seconds. They rode and spurred on a growing tide of anti-Semitism over two decades, and once they were in power, they went from street violence and evictions to ghettos, camps, and finally genocide. Even Auschwitz was built two years before the Final Solution was decided on at the Wannsee Conference.

While apartheid South Africa has been a better comparison for Israeli policy for most of its existence, it’s certainly true that the current government has been radicalising dangerously fast while the Palestinian position, and especially the Gazan position, has been growing more and more fragile. It really wouldn’t take much for the next lawn-mowing operation to turn into actual genocide, especially since Gaza’s water, electricity, and medical infrastructure are basically gone. The embassy opening massacre felt like a disturbing prelude, as has the ratcheting up of Israeli propaganda in recent months. The treatment of African migrants has also been deeply sinister, featuring everything from prison camps in lethal conditions to mass deportations while the government refers to them as ‘infiltrators’ (which is a colossal red flag when talking about refugees). I’m not going to blame anyone who gets a ‘Germany in the 1930s’ vibe from modern Israel - at least one Holocaust survivor has drawn parallels, in fact.

Plus, y’know, Netanyahu keeps cuddling up to card-carrying neo-Nazis. That’s a thing.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#13600: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:37:18 PM

I find so much about Israel's policies completely despicable, and one of many of them is the fact that Netanyahu has grouped himself with the international far right, including defending anti-semites and using anti-semitic language himself.

However, at the same time, there's definitely a thing/ manifestation of left-wing anti-Semitism. of people really, really wanting to be able to say that Jews are as bad or worse than Nazis. I chalk it up to a combination of sincere opposition toward Nazism coupled with a desire to avoid Jews being considered sympathetic- and therefore decentering them as victims of the Holocaust except in terms of saying that Jews have become as bad as their oppressors.

Part of it is definitely a reaction to Israel's legitimately terrible policies, but I think there's also an aspect of leftist seeing Jews (at least Ashkenazi ones) of being the oppressor class.

For whatever reason, this is probably why despite the Neo-Nazi Charlottesville "protestors" outright saying "Jews Will Not Replace Us" and lurking threateningly around synagogues, leftist discourse seemed to go out of its way to avoid mentioning that and only discussed their anti-black sentiments and actions.

(Kind of salty at the moment about this issue, in part because while I have little if any sympathy toward Trump officials, I'm annoyed at this conspiracy theory that Zina Bash was flashing a white-power symbol at the Kavanaugh hearing. I mean yes, Stephen Miller is pretty much a white-supremacist who happens to be Jewish and I think Bash might actually work under him. But I really dislike this discourse defending the theory that feels a lot like it comes down to an insistence that when Jews are bad they are the worst of the worst.)


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