TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper and troping real people

Go To

Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#1: Aug 2nd 2013 at 8:22:00 AM

I want to cover several topics here, if that is okay.

The first is specific to one page: At present, we have a page on Charles Manson. The page type is "Creator" and it is listed on the Administrivia.Creator Pages In Main as well as Useful Notes.

So first of all, is this a Creator Page or a Useful Notes page?

If Charles Manson can be legitamtly classified as a Creator of works of media, why are his works not listed.

Also, if he is a Creator, do we not have a policy that says that the tropes listed on a Creator page must be about the person's works rather than their personal life? Yet all of the tropes here describe him as a person rather than refering to anything he has written.

If he is not a Creator, why is the page type listing him as such? If this is really a Useful Notes page, it needs to be changed and namespaced. And yet...

Why is is a Useful for TV Tropes to even have a page on this guy? He is certainly notable, but this is not Wikipedia. What does covering this notable criminal, picked apparently at random out of many other notable criminals, do for our mission?

And why are we applying tropes to real life abuse and murder as if it were a work of fiction? In my opinion, poor taste. Also, at least one of those tropes is tagged as being a No Real Life Examples Please. Probably more, because many are villian or morality tropes.

By contrast, Jack The Ripper is written as a Historical Domain Character page. It lists many, many examples of the use of Jack The Ripper as a Historical Domain Character. Jack The Ripper is tropeworthy. Although even for that article, I question the wisdom of the list of tropes that applies to the murder cases. We might be better off limiting mentioned tropes to Jack the Ripoff.

Finally, I think we need to better define how pages on Real Life people are relevent to our mission, what types of people should have their own pages, and how we go about using tropes on pages about Real Life people. If we can come up with a set of guidelines, we could then start a projects thread to clean up pages.

edited 2nd Aug '13 8:23:16 AM by Catbert

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2: Aug 2nd 2013 at 8:44:22 AM

We do not "trope" Real Life people outside of RL sections of trope pages. That's been the so-far approach to Real Life.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#3: Aug 2nd 2013 at 2:52:42 PM

I agree, and for clarity, here's my take. It's okay to trope fictional portrayals of said people. (Hence Historical Domain Character existing.) Documenting the actual people is not needed and never will be.

That said, I suspect there's quite a bit of overlap between useful notes pages on people and creators or Historical Domain Characters. I wonder if we should limit Useful Notes to broader concepts (science, religion, philosophy, and so on), and leave people (and maybe places) to be actual trope pages if they show up enough in fiction.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Aug 2nd 2013 at 3:42:31 PM

No, people are not tropes. People should not be in the Main namespace. If they are creators of works, they go in creators. It they are people who figure in works often enough, or who serve as models for character types who appear in works often enough, they should be in Useful Notes.

Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#5: Aug 2nd 2013 at 5:17:59 PM

So, is Charles Manson a creator of a work that can be describe as such, or someone that appears as a Historical Domain Character often enough to be worth having a page for him as such?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#6: Aug 3rd 2013 at 12:45:37 AM

He's a creator of music, but he's better known for his criminal activities.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#7: Aug 3rd 2013 at 3:14:08 AM

In that case, if we retain a page on him, I think it should should include at least a solid paragraph on on musical activities, and a list of songs he has written.

It should also cut out all the tropes that describe him as a person rather than his works.

And of course it needs to be namespaced properly.

edited 3rd Aug '13 3:14:23 AM by Catbert

LordGro (Old as dirt)
#8: Aug 4th 2013 at 11:35:52 AM

Tropes applied to real life events and persons are ubiquitous on the Useful Notes pages. They are also against the wiki rules.

I understand the situation thusly: Such trope lists can and should be axed from all Useful Notes type pages (namespaced or not). The problem is that this will be a) a Herculean effort, and b) will trigger an outcry of tropers who do not know about or want to contest that rule.

DrStarky Okay Guy from Corn And Pig Land Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
Okay Guy
#9: Aug 4th 2013 at 2:27:28 PM

Simply deleting many trope lists would not be "Herculean" by any means.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian
LordGro (Old as dirt)
#10: Aug 5th 2013 at 12:15:02 PM

[up]There's a lot of Useful Notes pages. But I expect the real problem to be that after ten minutes, a well-meaning troper will have restored the list and reported you as a vandal.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#11: Aug 5th 2013 at 12:19:52 PM

Assuming that an example sectionectomy is warranted, linking to the relevant forum post in your edit reason does wonders to stop people from reporting you for vandalism.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shoboni Since: Oct, 2010
#12: Aug 5th 2013 at 8:10:14 PM

My opinion is to cut Mansion completely, and leave Jack limited to when listing when he's mentioned or used in works(and use Jack the Ripoff only for cases where's not actually him and just a copycat), or is a character in the work. I think he's become a special case where he's as much a fictional character as real person due to his usage in works.

edited 5th Aug '13 8:11:48 PM by shoboni

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#13: Aug 5th 2013 at 11:55:21 PM

I personally would just cut the Charles Manson page and leave the idea of creating a page about his music to any interested troper who knows how to use the Music/ namespace.

I agree with removing the trope lists about RL events. Ignoring pertinence issues, it makes it harder to enforce No Real Life Examples, Please!.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#14: Aug 6th 2013 at 4:42:52 PM

So, what do we need to do to get a consensus declared on cutting Charles Manson so that we have something to point to for the cut list?

edited 6th Aug '13 4:43:17 PM by Catbert

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#15: Aug 6th 2013 at 5:30:50 PM

Considering how arbitrary and irrational the cut list can be, why bother building a case?

I remember this came up before and prompted me to rail against figures getting into Creator on a technicality.

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#16: Aug 6th 2013 at 6:03:09 PM

As frustrating as the way the Cutlist is currently handled is, that's a subject for another thread.

Regarding the above division of Useful Notes vs. Creator, what do we do when the person is/was both? Jacques Cousteau would be such a case (I actually am the one who made his page, originally in Main due to namespaces barely existing as a thing back then), as we have a whole trope based on him. So which takes priority?

edited 6th Aug '13 6:03:25 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#17: Aug 6th 2013 at 6:38:02 PM

That seems like a straightforward example of a Creator page, though a bullet point list of all of his works might be a nice addition.

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#18: Aug 6th 2013 at 8:20:01 PM

If we have a Creator page, it should be about him as a creator. If not, that's what I mean by "getting into Creator on a technicality".

I believe on another thread it was suggested to have separate Useful Notes and Creator pages for Shakespeare, since he's notable to us both as a prolific creator of often-trope-making works and as a Historical Domain Character.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#19: Aug 6th 2013 at 11:46:06 PM

On UsefulNotes/ vs. Creator/: I use the writeup as a dividing line. If it's mainly about their works, Creator/, otherwise, UsefulNotes/.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
LordGro (Old as dirt)
#20: Aug 7th 2013 at 11:02:43 AM

@Fighteer: I guess what I want to say is that purging the Useful Notes pages would require a mod-backed Special Efforts project. There's no use in deleting a list here or there. If trope lists on Useful Notes pages have to go (and I think they should go), they should go all at once.

As for Charles Manson, I support cutlisting. There might be a justification for having a Useful Notes page on the Charles Manson murders, provided there are appearances in fiction. Not sure if there are such appearances, though.

As for Jack The Ripper, I generally like SeptimusHeap's suggestion of moving historical domain characters to HistoricalDomainCharacter/[person]. Though the problem with Jack The Ripper is that his identity is unknown and so, it's not strictly a Historical Domain Character. Maybe the proper place is Stock Unsolved Mysteries/JackTheRipper.

edited 7th Aug '13 11:04:21 AM by LordGro

Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#21: Aug 7th 2013 at 6:25:19 PM

Any final objections before I put Charles Manson on the Cut List? Anyone think we need a crowner vote?

What about Creator.Dale Earnhardt?

Is a sports car driver really a creator? Also, all the tropes look like they are about his real life and death. Not about the tropes used in any works in created.

edited 7th Aug '13 6:28:24 PM by Catbert

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#22: Aug 7th 2013 at 6:46:11 PM

Charles Manson and the Manson family does make occasional appearances in fiction.

Who watches the watchmen?
shoboni Since: Oct, 2010
#23: Aug 9th 2013 at 4:41:41 PM

Cite examples? I've never seen it. I've seen Jack the Ripper a lot though.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#24: Aug 9th 2013 at 6:04:02 PM

There is a film for starters also you are free to use google.

Easiest bit to find The rest is filtered by work.

Before I forget look under Helter Skelter not just Charles Manson or the Manson family.

Ok what I can find loosely without filters. Manson also appears in the Harry Turtledove book "Before the Beginning" and he appears In South Park

edited 9th Aug '13 7:13:46 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
shoboni Since: Oct, 2010
#25: Aug 9th 2013 at 8:06:39 PM

Could work as list of fiction he appears in, then. Maybe. I'd still cut it though since he's not a historical figure like Jack The Ripper.


Total posts: 62
Top