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Early Modern Fantasy: A What If?

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tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
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#1: Jul 4th 2013 at 2:30:40 PM

Over on the Game of Thrones TV topic they are comparing the styles of GRRM and JRRT and it expanded into a discussion of pre-Tolkien fantasy. It occured to me to ask, what of two wriiters whose live were cut short, Robert E Howard and H. P Lovecraft hadn't died so young? What if they had lived into say, their seventies? How would the history of modern fantasy (and in Lovecracft's case horror) been different? How would events like WWII and the civil rights movement have effected them?

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Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
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#2: Jul 4th 2013 at 3:54:47 PM

I'm not sure if I totally understand the chronology/history of fantasy, but one thing I've found interesting is when I first read some Lord Dunsany, I could see some really clear links to the genre called "sword and sorcery", and Dunsany was an influence on both Lovecraft and co. as well as Tolkein.

The early modern authors were writing for the "pulps" and it probably didn't help that as mentioned, they died young.

On the other hand, Tolkein had both mainstream connections (and was a great scholar), and was long lived.

I think had Lovecraft and Howard lived longer, they might have had more mainstream influence. One other factor that's interesting is that later sword and sorcery (which is basically the genre of Howard and Clark Ashton Smith) authors tend to see themselves in opposition to Tolkein, which might not have been the case had their genre taken off before Tolkein/developed simultaneously.

Looking it up, I see that Fritz Leiber started writing in the 30s (so around the same time as Howard), but his Fafhrd And The Grey Mouser stories weren't published til the late 60's, early 70's.

Edit- For Lovecraft and Howard specifically, they probably would have stayed racist I think (both were really racist), but they might have had more influence on writers who weren't (for instance, I can imagine Ray Bradbury perhaps being more influenced by them).

edited 4th Jul '13 3:57:30 PM by Hodor

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darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#3: Jul 4th 2013 at 5:33:54 PM

I don't quite think so. Lovecraft was actually starting to be more accepting in the last few years of his life. Compare for instance the Horror at Red Hook to At the Mountains of Madness.

I often wonder what Howard would have done. He indicated in his last letters that he was moving away from Conan and fantasy in general to focus on westerns, but he would have probably gone back later on.

And just imagine what Clark Ashton Smith could have written? He pretty much lost his muse once his friends Howard and Lovecraft died.

If they did break into the mainstream, I imagine pulp would have gotten more respect and more of the even more obscure authors would have had some comercial success. Dunsany would have also had some more influence.

Interestingly enough, Tolkien had said he'd read one of Howard's stories though he never said which and reportedly quite enjoyed it.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#4: Jul 4th 2013 at 6:35:04 PM

I doubt pulp would have gotten more respect. A pulp magazine was one printed on very low quality paper. Literature that garnered more popularity and respect would be able to afford higher quality paper, and therefore no longer be pulp.

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
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#5: Jul 4th 2013 at 7:26:57 PM

Not so sure about Lovecraft but Howard was definitely moving away from his racism. He condemned both the Armenian massacres and the Italian invasion of Ethiopia.

Howard, much more than Lovecraft had a tendency to go for what sold, while Lovecraft seemed to resent that he had to earn a living and hated a lot of his own work, including some of his best stuf like "Beyond the Mountains of Madness and The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, so I suspect REH would have moved away from the pulps as they collapsed. Maybe tried his hand at war stories when WWII hit or maybe science-fiction since Astounding, founded in 1940 did well.

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MrShine Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#6: Jul 4th 2013 at 9:14:12 PM

I find that those Sword and Sorcery stories have mostly aged pretty poorly compared to the other fantasy that came out at that time. Its interesting to think about whether the genre could have done something to "modernize" rather than sort of dying/being coopted into mainstream fantasy.

darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#7: Jul 4th 2013 at 11:49:10 PM

C. L. Moore's work hasn't much, imho. Heck, Jirel Of Joiry could teach today's female protagonists a thing or two. I wonder than how the Lord of the Rings would have faired. It could be possible that American fantasy would have more of a Weird influence, perhaps altering the impact of Lo TR. It would have still been very popular, but there's a question as to how much.

Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#8: Jul 6th 2013 at 7:52:04 PM

Interestingly, Tolkien told L.Sprague De Camp in an interview that he had read Howard's Conan stories, and actually quite liked them (Tolkien made every attempt, seriously, to read everything that got printed in English). Tolkien was himself most influenced by 19th writer William Morris. If I'm not mistaken, he even took the names "Gandalf" and "Shadowfax" from Morris's work.

It's hard to answer a "What if?" question...I imagine both men would likely have had careers similar to Fritz Leiber, who was part of their circle and lived, I believe, into the 90's.

edited 6th Jul '13 7:56:26 PM by Robbery

darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#9: Jul 6th 2013 at 8:20:11 PM

This is true. I've read Morris's work. Gandalf's a king and Shadowfax his horse both featured in the Well At World's End.

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
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#10: Jul 13th 2013 at 11:07:07 AM

Another What If?, one that had a short story, I forget by who written about it but I'd like your thoughts on it. What if Robert Heilein hadn't gotten tuberculosis and stayed in the navy. His first story was written because he had been ischarged and needed money. Would he still have become a writer? If so would he have written science-fiction? If not, what? Where might his naval career have gone?

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