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Why doesn't Batman kill Joker? Because this.

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NULLcHiLD27 Since: Oct, 2010
#76: Jun 9th 2013 at 4:16:30 PM

I skimmed through a recent Batman and Robin issue where he's working with Red Hood and Batman used these powergloves that, if I remember correctly, permanently damaged the nerves in these snipers arms or something, making them incapable of ever using their guns again.

Why was he okay with doing that to random assholes out in the middle of nowhere in some Middle Eastern country, but not against his own rogues gallery?

edited 9th Jun '13 4:27:17 PM by NULLcHiLD27

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#77: Jun 9th 2013 at 5:02:42 PM

Depending on what kind of interrogation you're in, the person interrogating you is often entirely willing and able to do everything he's trying to threaten you with. Batman isn't. His words are empty, his threats are meaningless. The criminal has all the power because Batman won't kill him, and Batman won't Fate Worse Than Death him because his pacifism is the result of a staunch moral code, and Fate Worse Than Death is even more immoral than killing someone. So as long as his morals are holding him back, there is only so far he can go, and he's so famous that everybody knows it.

Again, actual interrogation doesn't work that way. Bluffing, embellishing, and even completely fabricating are all useful and successful tools in interrogation. For example, police often make threats, promises, and assumptions during interrogation to make a person of interest crack. A good interrogator can walk into an interview with nothing and come out with more information than he needed.

There's no reason Batman can't do the same, but writers aren't learned interrogators. Writers think dangling a criminal over a roof is efficient interrogation. In fact, they think interrogation is something that can take minutes or seconds, when it usually takes hours or even days (not to mention relies on a team of people who can verify what the POI says to avoid wasting their time).

edited 9th Jun '13 5:21:48 PM by KingZeal

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#78: Jun 9th 2013 at 6:01:26 PM

That's because police have promises and threats they actually can make. Police can promise things Batman can't, such as a reduced sentence for cooperation. What does Batman have to offer the felon? All Batman has going for him is the rooftop-dangling, and he can't even do that right because everyone knows it's an empty threat.

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KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#79: Jun 9th 2013 at 6:16:36 PM

No they don't. Police threaten people with more or less jail time (something cops have no control over whatsoever), fake being corrupt cops, flat out lie about the law (such as telling someone that what they did isn't illegal, when it totally is), sometimes they even lie about violence or the willingness to hurt the perp, and do all sorts of things to make a them confess. As I said, a skilled interrogator can walk into an interview room with nothing and come out with everything.

edited 9th Jun '13 6:19:12 PM by KingZeal

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#80: Jun 9th 2013 at 6:47:37 PM

For some reason, most thugs seem to think he's going to actually fulfill his death threats. If that happens because they have an universe-enforced idiocy field or if it's a natural consequence of not wanting to gamble with death while someone hangs you from a building and threatens to make you street pizza is debatable, but it still works again and again in-universe, so Batman has no real reason to think mooks will suddenly start telling him 'Your bluffing, ha-ha' and stick to it.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#81: Jun 9th 2013 at 6:55:12 PM

Hell, most people in Real Life don't know what real cops can or can't do to build a case against them. Why would they know what Batman can or can't do?

Also, Batman even has another advantage cops dont: real police have to stop an interrogation the minute the perp asks for a lawyer, and wait for their legal counsel before they can continue. Batman doesn't. If you refuse to answer him now, he can tie you up in some dark, smelly hole for hours or days and wait until hunger or the need bowel movements makes you desperate. (Which, also, is something real cops do.)

edited 9th Jun '13 8:18:17 PM by KingZeal

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#82: Jun 9th 2013 at 11:33:59 PM

Real cops can do all the stuff Batman can as well - they're just not permitted to, what with due process existing. Actually, Batman isn't permitted to either, but he does anyway.

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indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#83: Jun 10th 2013 at 1:27:59 AM

[up] Hence him looking inconsistent when he chews out Huntress and the like for actually finishing off the crooks, rather than settling for the morally upright assault and battery, torture, illegal observation, or forced extradition from a country that Gotham law enforcement has no jurisdiction over. That's what I mean by practicing what you preach - in light of all his transgressions, his famed one rule just looks tacked on. He's too anti-social to pass for a noble and upstanding cape, but ultimately too soft be truly threatening. His act is all a bluff which, at least in the Nolanverse, has been called, mocked, and failed. Conversely, guys like Deadpool and the Punisher can both be really frightening when they want to, and don't set up rigid moral codes they can't live up to, while true capes like Superman of the Flash are usually more civil and don't bother with the whole scary act.

As for his interrogation skills, stringing people up from buildings or beating them senseless are actually some of the most useless methods out there, even if you don't know he's bluffing. Perp Sweating doesn't work outside of law enforcement, since he can't threaten people with a jail sentence either, especially in Gotham. All in all, either he sweats Scarecrow's fear toxin from his pores, or Gotham's crooks really are that easily frightened... which just raises further questions on why isn't done with them already.

edited 10th Jun '13 1:47:06 AM by indiana404

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#84: Jun 10th 2013 at 3:23:42 AM

Don't agree with any of that.

For one thing, superheroes who practice lethal force aren't "practicing what they preach, either". If you want consistency, then where's the realistic portrayal of the failings of lethal force? Where are the bullet richochets that kill babies in the cribs? Where's the itchy trigger finger that results in civilian casualties? There's a reason that sort of thing is frowned upon in Real Life; and there's a reason soldiers in urban war zones have explicit rules of engagement. So if we're going to criticize Batman for being inconsistent or unrealistic, then we need to do the same to them.

As I mentioned before, the problem with lethal superheroes/anti-heroes like Deadpool or Punisher is that they don't work as a premise for long. A character that acts outside the law, and kills without due process is an entity that, even if necessary for a time, will eventually become less necessary the longer they're active. It'd be different if Frank Castle was a swat officer or an agent. But he's not—he's a Shell-Shocked Veteran with an emotional need to kill criminals. Punisher: War Zone gave a perfect example why he would eventually become a worse monster than those he fought; in that film, he accidentally killed an undercover cop when he shot up an entire room of mobsters, in the process ruining the case that officer had been working on.

Also, I repeat: an interrogator does not need to actually have anything to get a perp to talk. Interrogators are so good at their job that the law actually has to hold them back. An actual problem in Real Life is interrogators getting guilty confessions out of people who are actually innocent, so I don't think Batman would have a problem in that regard.

For example, just because we know that Batman has no judicial authority, that doesn't mean the average thug does. As I mentioned already, in Real Life, thugs have all kinds of misunderstandings about what cops can and can't do. How in the hell are the going to know what Batman can and can't do? Hell, there's actually been stories where Batman has offered (and arranged for) lighter treatment of criminals because they cooperated. The Man Who Killed Batman being one example.

edited 10th Jun '13 3:27:13 AM by KingZeal

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#85: Jun 10th 2013 at 4:03:12 AM

Where are the bullet richochets that kill babies in the cribs? Where's the itchy trigger finger that results in civilian casualties?
They're smashed under the rubble of the latest Conveniently Empty Building thrashed by Superman, moments before the Batmobile causes a chain car accident right next to it. Honestly, if we're talking superhero collateral damage, itchy trigger fingers are your last concern. Also, neither Wade nor Castle bother with investigations much, and the Hitman/JLA crossover showed how regular Gotham flatfoots deal with deadly vigilantism - they welcome it gladly, literally in the face of Batman's efforts.

And no, interrogators are not magical mind-readers, always finding out the truth. If Batman can get false confessions so easily, that's actually a strike against him. Functionally, he's torturing innocent people into admitting guilt, while letting the real monsters off the hook with his moral code, fully knowing that no prison can hold them for long. Only the weakest of his rogues actually fear him, while the Joker rightfully mocks him for his melodramatic impotence.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#86: Jun 10th 2013 at 5:27:09 AM

That first paragraph only proves my point. Collateral damage is no less inconsistent for lethal heroes than it is for others. You were the one who said they "practiced what they preached". I was just showing the fault in that argument.

And no one said interrogators are mind readers—but the best ones ("best meaning good at making people talk) are able to use context clues to manipulate a perp, as well as psychological manipulation and stress. And really, Batman is still more feared than Deadpool or The Punisher, although I think the latter gives him a run for his money. Just because the best and brightest criminals can't be intimidated doesn't mean it doesn't work. Again, Real Life interrogators often deal with perps who have no fear of them whatsoever—and still get them to confess. Hell, I know a cop who told a story of a lawyer that smugly ridiculed the cops because be knew the law and all their tricks. They turned that against him and got him to talk long enough to build a rock-solid case.

edited 10th Jun '13 5:42:16 AM by KingZeal

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#87: Jun 10th 2013 at 7:10:59 AM

Hence him looking inconsistent when he chews out Huntress and the like for actually finishing off the crooks, rather than settling for the morally upright assault and battery, torture, illegal observation, or forced extradition from a country that Gotham law enforcement has no jurisdiction over. That's what I mean by practicing what you preach - in light of all his transgressions, his famed one rule just looks tacked of.

I think part of it is explained by Batman actually wanting others to hold higher moral standards than him. For all some fans like harping on Batman's 'ego', he's also fairly self-despising. He dislikes being called a hero, and to some degree, he's always faulting himself over his parents' deaths.

Once, when he called Kyle Rayner on intimidating some criminals, and Kyle tells him 'You pull the same crap ten times before breakfast', his answer is 'Yes, but that is ME, isn't it?' For the most part, he thinks other heroes should be morally better than him. He believes them to be able to meet morally higher standards than himself.

In a way, it's like what Punisher would feel if Captain America, one of the few people Frank actually admires, started killing criminals at left and right like he does. Both Wayne and Castle realize others, like Superman and Cap, should be meeting much higher moral values than themselves, because they are the public inspiration icons they can't be themselves. That is joined to feelings of 'parental inadequacy' when it's one of the Junior Bat-Brigade members going lower than him. It plays on the 'every father wants his children to be better than him' motif.

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#88: Jun 10th 2013 at 7:13:54 AM

[up][up] I actually disagree that Batman is more feared than the Punisher; even the big-name criminals of the Marvel Universe won't willingly wrestle with him. I've seen Taskmaster outright say that no amount of money in the world would convince him to accept a hit on the Punisher.

When Deathstroke the Terminator quakes in fear at the mention of Batman's name, then I'll agree that he's more feared than the Punisher.

edited 10th Jun '13 7:14:28 AM by TobiasDrake

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KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#89: Jun 10th 2013 at 7:36:38 AM

That's not really a good comparison. Deathstroke is metahuman. You're talking about a guy who took on the entire Justice League for money at one point. Taskmaster is completely human, and seems a bit more pragmatic than Slade, who's about honor and challenge as much as money.

Whether or not it's pulled off well in practice, Batman is supposed to THE Dreaded on comics. That's who he is, regardless of the failings of individual writers.

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#90: Jun 10th 2013 at 8:13:04 AM

Maybe he's supposed to be - and even then, you can argue writers and reboots until the cows come home - but he's not. People fear Batman the way people fear Spider-Man, Superman, or any other Cape. The Joker doesn't fear him, Lex Luthor doesn't fear him, Deathstroke doesn't fear him, Darkseid doesn't fear him...he does not inspire the level of fear that The Dreaded requires, except in the same nameless mooks that are afraid of every other superhero. If there is no functional difference between the, "Oh god, it's Batman!" reaction and the, "Oh god, it's Superman!" reaction, then he is not The Dreaded.

edited 10th Jun '13 8:13:34 AM by TobiasDrake

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NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#91: Jun 10th 2013 at 8:18:39 AM

Out of all the Rogues, most do fear him, it's just most of the time their confidence on their plans trumps over that fear. Scarecrow has outright stated Batman is the only one who ever can scare him, and most other Rogues fall into Terrified Mode when he's on them and their plans fall down. The Penguin fears him enough to be bullied by him in a regular basis.

The only Rogues who don't fear him are Ra's (pretty much his overall superior), Bane (more or less in his own league), Joker (too crazy), Two-Face (too deep a personal connection), Croc (too dumb), Catwoman (not really a villain anyway), Freeze (emotionally dead to everyone, a Death Seeker at times) and Wesker's Scarface persona (too full of himself and arrogant). Several, true, but still not that many in a Rogues Gallery as huge as his. And most of those are hardened enough to be unafraid of any superhero, even those who could rightfully punch them out with a pinky.

edited 10th Jun '13 8:19:43 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#92: Jun 10th 2013 at 8:20:11 AM

That first paragraph only proves my point.
Um, no, it doesn't. You brought the point of collateral damage yourself, and now you concede that in that regard, non-lethal heroes are the same Karma Houdinis as the lethal ones. Neither ones hurt innocents by default. As for interrogation, your story is basically about quietly talking the perp into confession - decidedly not Batman's m.o.

Cheese, I'm not sure if that's Batman sacrificing his own standards, or just being a morally dissonant prick. He gets just as indignant when someone like Huntress goes one step beyond and actually kills a crook or two. That's the problem - his morals ultimately aren't much different than those of the other capes; his dark and brooding pathos simply doesn't deliver.

In fact, it is precisely Deathstroke who summed up the Bat best, before thoroughly trashing him:

"You've been trained to fight. I've been trained to kill."

So really, it's not the writers' fault - in a world full of killers, there's nothing dreadful in a mere fighter. Only his weakest of rogues actually fear his image, and the rest mock him for it.

edited 10th Jun '13 8:21:08 AM by indiana404

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#93: Jun 10th 2013 at 8:22:03 AM

You see what you want to see. Especially in a Depending on the Writer world full of different authors and interpretations over the years.

edited 10th Jun '13 8:28:15 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#94: Jun 10th 2013 at 8:47:25 AM

[up] Point. But I feel that Batman as a concept has stopped working. There's a reason his Memetic Badass status is based around "prep time" for whatever Ass Pull the writers provide him with - on his own, he's stopped being threatening to all but the meekest mooks.

Conversely, a guy like the Joker constantly has to get shilled on how unpredictable and dangerous he is, how even killing him is not certain to result in things getting better; because really - he's a man dressed like a clown. He's a slasher flick villain, yet instead of chasing fragile timid girls, he's put against powerful plutocrats and walking demigods, so he has to be written one excuse after another to be able to hold his own, and not get pulverized five seconds into the fight.

On their own, such issues are trivial in a comic book playing them for laughs, or at least not taking them so seriously. But otherwise, concessions have to be made, one way or the other, lest all believability flies out the belfry.

edited 10th Jun '13 8:51:09 AM by indiana404

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#95: Jun 10th 2013 at 8:50:48 AM

But I feel that Batman as a concept has stopped working.

Well, that's nice. However, while I've never advocated Majority Makes Right, I feel like pointing out it hasn't failed as a concept in the sense he's still one of the highest-grossing fictional characters all over the world. The concept still works fine. It's just the kinks and details that, to long time followers, mostly, are troubling.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#96: Jun 10th 2013 at 8:52:16 AM

Karma Houdini - I do not think it means what you think it means.

No, I brought up collateral damage to make a point—correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemd your argument was that lethal heroes "practice what they preach" by not standing up on a moral high ground. But that's not possible, because the collateral damage from lethal heroes should honestly be worse. If your argument is that Superman is a hypocrite because he causes a lot of damage punching Zod through a skyscraper, then a superhero who is actively trying to kill Zod would be even worse. You're talking about a character that could take a nuke and just get a bloody nose. If trying NOT to kill that guy demolishes skyscrapers, what do you think trying to kill him is going to do?

You've been trained to fight. I've been trained to kill.

Which is one of the dumbest statements ever. Batman was trained in numerous fighting styles and weapons arts, including firearms—which, you know, kill. He's also been trained by ninjas and lethal martial artists like Lady Shiva. Batman's fighting style is specifically designed to counter lethal moves, which requires that you know them. In numerous occasions where Batman has been forced to kill (usually Elseworlds or bad futures), he demonstrates that he's always had the ability.

In a world full of killers, there's nothing dreadful in a mere fighter. Only the weakest of his rogues actually fear his image, and the rest mock him for it.

Depending on the Writer. And even then, that's still better than most other characters. And especially considering that Batman is considered to have one of the most evil rogues galleries in comics.

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#97: Jun 10th 2013 at 8:54:52 AM

Yeah, the point is not Batman hasn't been trained to kill; he very well could start killing with efficiency if he wanted to start right now. It's he chooses not to kill with those kills he learned. Still, it's mostly semantics. Poor wording on Deathstroke's part, if that's indeed the actual quote (don't remember it myself), but still, I think we all know the spiritual feeling behind it.

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#98: Jun 10th 2013 at 9:05:19 AM

No, I brought up collateral damage to make a point—correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemd your argument was that lethal heroes "practice what they preach" by not standing up on a moral high ground. But that's not possible, because the collateral damage from lethal heroes should honestly be worse. If your argument is that Superman is a hypocrite because he causes a lot of damage punching Zod through a skyscraper, then a superhero who is actively trying to kill Zod would be even worse. You're talking about a character that could take a nuke and just get a bloody nose. If trying NOT to kill that guy demolishes skyscrapers, what do you think trying to kill him is going to do?

Actually, killing someone isn't that hard. It actually takes a lot more effort to nonlethally subdue a violent person than it does to kill them, because you can't take the easy roads. You can't break his neck. You can't drive an object through his heart. You can't make him bleed out, and you have to be very careful with suffocation. The only options you have for neutralizing the threat are some of the hardest methods of actually neutralizing a person; most superheroes basically just have to keep punching their opponent until he passes out from the pain, which is a dreadfully time-consuming method of fighting, especially if the stronger party is deliberately pulling his punches so he doesn't accidentally kill the other guy.

Superman has to waste time doing things like punching Zod through skyscrapers because he can't, say, fire heat vision through Zod's eyeballs until his brain melts, and that racks up the collateral damage.

That's my beef; I have no problem with superheroes who don't like killing, and refuse to kill an enemy in cold blood. I do take issue with superheroes who refuse, under any circumstances, to take a life, even if it means demolishing the neighborhood in a superpowered bare-knuckled brawl because they're holding back for the sake of protecting their enemy's life. The first priority of the fight should be ending the fight, however you have to do it. This is why police have a point at which Lethal Force can become authorized.

edited 10th Jun '13 9:09:24 AM by TobiasDrake

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indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#99: Jun 10th 2013 at 9:11:28 AM

Ninja'd, but still - actually, one kryptonite bullet or two, and Zod is finished, without trashing the neighborhood. That's the morality of the Punisher - one guilty life, against thousands of innocents. Which supposed heroes like the Bat kill by refusing to truly stop their murderers, yet still act morally superior to anyone not so passive.

Moreover, I invoked Deathstroke as a point about fear - getting beat up is kinda scary, but being decapitated by hand is much more frightening. That's the error in the concept of Batman - he starts with trying to scare the "superstitious and cowardly lot" he thinks criminals are. Truth be told, career crooks are neither superstitious, nor cowardly, and that's not even mentioning his own rogues. So, that's my beef - his self-image and his actions are thoroughly disparate. Not killing is fine on its own, but seriously, Bats, at least don't play the Bad Ass if you can only be a Bad Butt.

edited 10th Jun '13 9:13:35 AM by indiana404

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#100: Jun 10th 2013 at 9:15:04 AM

actually, one kryptonite bullet or two, and Zod is finished, without trashing the neighborhood.

Yeah, it's not like Zod is faster than a speeding bullet or anyth— Oh, wait, he is!

Villains like Zod are very hard to kill in fashions that don't involve major destruction anyway. With Batman or Daredevil rogues, and even some of Spider-Man's, you can do that without much of a mess, but good luck killing Darkseid when he comes to Metropolis in a way that doesn't take the whole state with him.


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