@redhunter543
I know this is 2 weeks old and I'm not sure if it's been addressed but this is just a Common Knowledge meme and the most likely scenario is that they did it in between the end of Chapter 3 and prior to waking up in Chapter 4. You still have the Silver Watch during the entirety of Chapter 3 if you removed it (and it's gone in Chapter 4). There's also clearly a period of time where the player isn't privy to what happens after the bunker door opens for Kris. Speaking of Common Knowledge I'm starting to see this Kris slash theory spread and I find it to be one of the most hole-riddled theories yet and is clearly based on the fanon meme interpretations of Kris being evil and the Knight being a fraud, completely ignoring Kris's canon characterization in Chapters 3 and 4 where they clearly care about their new friends and don't want them hurt and the Knight being portrayed as an invincible villain toying with them.
Also does anyone have any idea what this part in the Developer's Foresight page is about?
"Normally, the fight against Elnina and Lanino forces the player to pick whose attack they liked more, leading to the two breaking up and Tenna automatically fulfilling the battle condition for you. If you actually go through saying "I love TV" 99 times (which is impossible without hacking), the battle won't end, and Tenna will comment that the couple won't let you win that easily. The counter will also have a unique animation where it goes down from 99 to 0 before going back up when Tenna fulfills the condition for you."
If it's about this video, the counter going down is an edit by the video creator themselves who likes to do that for the end of all their videos. The video itself says the game just softlocks there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E2tPorQndA
I don't want to jump the gun and remove if there's another video about it though.
Edited by Shad0wSmoke on Jul 24th 2025 at 8:37:22 AM
The thing is, Kris doesn't wanna hurt the Knight either nor directly harm their schemes. They'll only get aggressive with them under very specific circumstances, and will do everything they can to prevent the gang from learning the codes of the Shelter while still appearing cooperative. In, Chapter 4, Kris never directly asks about the codes even when that's what you're asking of them, and if you force them to interact with the Fire Extinguisher, their odd reaction to it hints they're already aware the thing has a secret code.
Not to mention, the fight against the Knight also proves that the guy is ultimately vincible. Ergo, it's not entirely implausible Kris wouldn't do something to protect them in a way it doesn't give away their allegiances. And if that something is performing a "Knight like attack" that can knock their friends out cold before they realize what happened, I honestly see them going for it (not saying they 100% did it, mind you, but the idea of Kris being the one saving the Knight's hide that way isn't entirely OOC of them by that point).
Edited by Blackress on Jul 24th 2025 at 9:25:02 AM
Kris doesn't have to be capital-E Evil to be working with the Knight.
The impression I get is that they think they have to, for some reason. The mysterious promise at the end of chapter 4 (normal route) is an obvious candidate for the reason, but it's not impossible that it's something else.
Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.And even then, I doubt Kris was the one who attacked Susie and Ralsei. Honestly, I'm not even sure if Kris and the Knight are actually on the same side so much them not wanting to hurt each other.
Well, its clear from the phone calls that Kris is working with somebody and context clues make the Knight one of the most likely suspects for being that somebody, even if its far more likely they're doing it out of a sense of obligation or coercion than out of malevolence.
Though that does raise an interesting question in itself, whether a part of Kris' motive for trying to steer the player away from seeing or interacting with the Knight is more out of not wanting us to hurt them, rather than directly following the Knight's orders.
Maybe Kris isn't in cahoots with the Knight but does know who the Knight is and doesn't want to hurt them. Maybe we will find out the Knight is a tragic figure being used.
Probably will be a point in the future where Susie thinks Kris is siding with the Knight and they come to blows.
Although Kris's damage does increase in the fight should Susie and Ralsei be swooned.
Edited by ObligatorySarcasm on Jul 24th 2025 at 1:01:52 PM
-Witty line-But we don't know if the person on the phone is the Knight, and likely they are not. And in turn, while it's clear that the phone person has a connection to the Knight, we don't know if they are working together or not. Kris could possibly be working for a villain, just not the Knight.
I'm still of the opinion that Kris and the Knight are co-dragons to someone.
And the phone has two voices on the other side.
The Weird route does rule out Carol though, since she speaks normally when contacting Kris at the end.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Same here. I don't think it'd be wise to use the Weird Route to theory-craft for the Normal Route.
Not to mention, the fight against the Knight also proves that the guy is ultimately vincible. Ergo, it's not entirely implausible Kris wouldn't do something to protect them in a way it doesn't give away their allegiances. And if that something is performing a "Knight like attack" that can knock their friends out cold before they realize what happened, I honestly see them going for it (not saying they 100% did it, mind you, but the idea of Kris being the one saving the Knight's hide that way isn't entirely OOC of them by that point).
Right in the fight itself Kris does double than quadruple damage to the Knight when their friends are downed which is a big indication they value their friends' wellbeing over the Knight's. Kris is very likely working with the Knight but outright stabbing their closest friends and love interest with what the theory posits to be a real knife is just way too extreme. We're shown how much Kris balks at stabbing avatar versions of their friends and how panicked they are to pull Susie to safety if you try to stab at her. And there's no reason why the Knight couldn't have done it. People seem to forget the Knight was only taken down to 80% health in the fight and that alone is superboss difficulty and likely to take all of even a skilled player's items. If Toby wanted to show the Knight is more vincible we should've been able to take it down to a much lower health percentage. I've seen people try to come up with additional headcanons like Kris was actually trying to protect Susie and Ralsei from getting lethally killed by a furious Knight but it's clear people are just grasping for straws at that point.
That's not to mention other holes in the theory like how Kris doesn't move an inch despite making such brutally strong attacks that they've never made elsewhere in the game either even when alone against weird route Spamton NEO or how both Susie and Ralsei are knocked to the left even though Kris was behind Susie. Or how Ralsei still compliments Kris for being brave and that he thought the group had won after the cutscene even though one of the main arguments for the theory was that he was expressing horror and despair at Kris doing it.
Edited by Shad0wSmoke on Jul 24th 2025 at 11:29:26 AM
The Knight my or may not be the one on the phone in the Normal route, but Kris still acts weird towards them. They do half damage to the Knight in the fight unless Susie and Ralsei are down, if you reach the Knight at the start of the Dark Sanctuary, Kris just stands there and takes the hit, and if you "beat" the Knight in Chapter 3, the Knight one-shots the others while non-violently making Kris kneel instead. And in the Knight scenes, it's Susie being the proactive one against them,not Kris.
-Witty line-
More precisely, Kris does half damage if both Susie and Ralsei are up, normal damage if one is down, and double damage if both are down.
But like I said, there seems to be several people on that voice chat, and Carol STILL goes to interrupt Susie's and Noelle's moment without the phone call happening in the weird route.
So there's another thing that rules out Carol from being the voice at the end of the normal route.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 25th 2025 at 3:11:30 AM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"@Shadowsmoke: That's kind of the weird thing though. The way the "Knight defeat cutscene" is handled is very ambiguous on what exactly happens. We see Susie and Ralsei getting backstabbed by an attack from behind, but we don't see who does the attack: The Knight vanishes entirely when it's happening, and Kris doesn't even move, and everything that happens in between is either hidden in black or by the "slash screen of swoon".
The only actual hints we get for the whole mess are the following:
- Before Ralsei get's swooned, he says, while looking at Susie's location, "How could you...?".
- The Knight is shown "knighting Kris" shortly after Susie and Ralsei collapse, thus forcing their surrender.
- If examined, Toriel's sleeping expression is described as "contorted in agony". This is in stark contrast to how she "sleeps peacefully" when the Knight sweeps the party as intended.
The interesting thing is that the game does provide an argument in favor of the Knight being potentially defeated right there:
- If you repeat the fight more than once, The Voice (Gaster?) will tell you that while the fight is not intended to be feasible, he still encourages you to keep trying. Them even telling you if you're missing the Shadow Mantle is a big cue that they wanna know what happens if the player somehow "defies what has been written", in a way.
- Right after the Knight's final attack, the text describing the battle can say two things:
- 1. If the player reached this part of the battle normally, the text will signal that the Knight has dropped their guard after their final attack. The implications then become that the next strike is guaranteed to cause massive damage (more so under Undertale/Deltarune rules).
- 2. If the player has received no damage by this point, Kris will cough and that will make the Knight tilt their head. Kris during Chapter 3 often uses coughs as signals for the player to do something (like picking the correct choice in Tenna's games), so them doing something similar against the Knight implies they're telling them to do something, like potentially "throwing" the fight.
It is contradictory, isn't it? Why would Ralsei even praise Kris right after if we assume they indeed backstabbed the gang? Is he privy to some information we're not aware of...?
Edited by Blackress on Jul 24th 2025 at 12:33:16 PM
Hold up there, bucky, we just know there's only a few people in the chat, not that Carol is ruled out on the Normal Route.
Self-professed Wild Card who thinks cynicism isn't so bad.Yeah but Carol speaks normally on the phone in the Weird route and it's explicitly her on that phone.
So she can't be one of the voices on the phone. You have yet to provide a counter argument for why she can be one of the voices.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 25th 2025 at 3:28:32 AM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"Oh, so it's my responsibility to do that, then?
Normal route, Kris makes a call, someone says they'll come over right away, and then Carol walks through the door.
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Asgore was there the whole time, it couldn't have been him.
If anything, you're coming up short on evidence.
Edited by Ego-Man25 on Jul 24th 2025 at 3:34:14 PM
Self-professed Wild Card who thinks cynicism isn't so bad.

Thank you, I'm glad I wasn't going crazy. It was odd as I watch playthroughs and that dialog set doesn't happen, and I was surprised how little it was talked about in the fandom as its a burning question. I thought I stumbled on a rare dialog.
-Witty line-